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good afternoon everyone or good morning
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good evening depending on what time zone
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you happen to be in
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um what's nice about these zoom events
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is that we can bring together
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a much wider audience and reach people
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from all over the world
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my name is michael berry i am the
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director of the
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center for chinese studies at ucla it's
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my great pleasure to welcome everyone
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back to
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another one of our events uh this is an
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event that
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i'm particularly excited for i as you
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can see i'm a fan i
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started reading professor hagel back in
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graduate
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school even though i'm a scholar myself
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of film and modern chinese literature
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his work on late imperial literature has
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always been very inspiring and so it's
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it's great to have him here with us
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virtually
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in just a moment my colleague winghui
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professor wu will be introducing
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professor hagel
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but i wanted to thank everyone for
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attending and supporting our events
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online
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i also want to give you a little
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snapshot of some of the upcoming events
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this week on friday tomorrow we will be
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co-presenting or we're a co-sponsor of
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an event that the asia society is
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putting on with a film premiere
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of the film leap uh next week we will
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have another one of our center for
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chinese scholars forums which brings
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together
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faculty from disparate fields here at
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ucla to try to create a dialogue
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amongst various china scholars and
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especially in this time
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of remote teaching and learning i think
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it's really important we build community
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so i hope those of you
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of course within ucla but also outside
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join us for that event to learn more
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about
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current research being done on campus
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related to china at ucla
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moving forward which also with a heavy
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heart that i
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mentioned an event we're holding on
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april 8 which is
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memorial to our dear esteemed colleague
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professor james tong who passed away
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last year
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and we're going to be having a virtual
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memorial for professor tong
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and i also want to extend an invitation
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to those of you out there
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uh colleagues at ucla friends of
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professor tong if you
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uh would like to speak at that event
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please do contact me or contact esther
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joe
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our assistant director and we look
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forward to seeing many of you
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in what we hope will be a warm
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celebration of his legacy here at ucla
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and without further ado i'm going to
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turn the microphone over to my colleague
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who is a specialist in late imperial
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chinese literature
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and theater she is completing a book
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manuscript tentatively entitled virtuoso
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performance on the page
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reading drama in 17th century china and
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she will have the honor of introducing
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our speaker professor wool
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thank you michael um good afternoon
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everyone my name is inhue
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i'm an assistant professor of chinese at
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ucla and it's my great pleasure
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to welcome everyone to today's event
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which will feature professor robert
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hagel from washington university in
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saint louis
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first i will briefly introduce our
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speaker today professor robert hagel
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is lisa lord dickman professor
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emeritus of comparative literature and
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professor emeritus of chinese at
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washington university in san luis
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where he had a long and fruitful career
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of over 40 years
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he's a specialist in late imperial
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chinese literature from 1500
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to 1900 is the author co-editor and
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translator of many books
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to name just a few most influential ones
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those
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include the novel in 17th century china
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reading illustrated fiction in late
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imperial china writing and law in late
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imperial china
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in recent years i've learned that
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professor hego has been collaborating
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with his former
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graduate students in several translation
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projects
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those include a collection of short
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stories
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idol talk under the bing arbor that came
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out in 2017
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and two books that came out last year
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and
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one is lilu's book bimuyu and the other
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is a 17th century novel
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chiopu known as further adventures on
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the journey to the west
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i should also mention that professor
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hegel is one of the most dedicated
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teachers and mentors i have known
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who continued to support his students
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long after their graduation
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i'm privileged to be one of his students
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when i asked him to virtually join a
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class i'm teaching this quarter
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he graciously agreed so the talk today
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is held
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in conjunction with my class called the
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traditional chinese narrative and
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fiction
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which covers chinese narrative
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conventions from the tongue to the chin
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peers
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he's going to introduce idol talk under
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the bing arbor
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and share some of his most recent
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thoughts on how narrative conventions
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established by the time of the late meme
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were
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contested and reinvented and how social
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values were parodied and debunked
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although the content of his talk is
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tailored to a class
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i should say that it will be inspiring
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to not only students but any audience
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who are interested in late imperial
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chinese literature
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so during the talk we welcome you to
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submit your questions in the q and a
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panel anytime
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and then at the end of the talk i will
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read out the questions and let professor
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higo answer them now let me hand it over
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to professor higgo he'll begin his talk
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in just a few seconds
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thank you so much well i'm sure it's an
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honor to join your class professor barry
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it's an honor to have been
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invited to speak for the center for
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chinese studies and esther joe thank you
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for all your help and reassurance
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because
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as a relative newcomer to zoom and
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digital
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uh correspondence this is uh not
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familiar territory for me so
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if i if i uh somehow make a mistake here
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please forgive me but i wanted to talk
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about this
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collection of short stories that i um
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had of good fortune to edit
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along with the translations by many of
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my former students and present students
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at the time
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idle talk under the bean arbor or
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dopancynhua
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is a collection of 12 stories printed
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about 1660 in a style now generally
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considered vernacular chinese
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that is it uses a classical and
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colloquial words an expression
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based on the grammar and syntax of the
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spoken language
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vernacular story first appeared in the
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middle of the 16th century
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both the form and the style of writing
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were perfected by fangmanglung
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in the 1620s with his three great
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collections of 40 stories each
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but those of you who are in ways class
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already know this
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and you already know that what makes
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most of these stories so interesting is
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that they exhibit what's been called a
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kind of
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formal realism that is the stories
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contain details about the settings of
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actions the things that their characters
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do
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and their characters motivations
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these details make the story seem
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convincing as if they were real
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events
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[Music]
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hold on just a second here
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there we go
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uh even though the details are cleverly
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and quite obviously manipulated to make
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the stories amusing
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and often edifying as well because they
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became standard practices for writing
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in the vernacular huaban form these can
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be called
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conventions and that's what i want to
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talk about today feng manglung surveyed
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earlier collections of stories written
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in tur's classical literary style
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looking for particularly interesting
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tales
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he and his collaborators amplified those
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old stories
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with new subplots and lots more details
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of everyday life
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uh by doing so he made this literary
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form a great success among readers at
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the end of the ming empire
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and through the qing period as well
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their earlier uses of
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their uses of earlier narratives as
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source material became the conventions
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of writing for
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mangalong and his contemporary ling chu
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but idle talk under the bean arbor is
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unconventional
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in many ways it's comprised of twelve
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stories each presented as if the reader
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were watching and listening to an oral
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presentation
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the conventional narrator in feng
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wong-woo short stories ostensibly
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pretends to be a professional
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storyteller
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instead in idle talk these raconteurs
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are all
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amateurs and they vary in their ability
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to tell a good story
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i suspect that aina the the author of
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these tales deliberately made them so
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interestingly the audiences in idle talk
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are personified as common villagers
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they're not ignorant or naive but
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they're not educated either
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whether or not these audience members
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are able to read printed fiction
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they are all familiar with storytelling
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the audience members know
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what constitutes a good story they have
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high expectations of the teller
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and his delivery consequently these
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listeners actively criticize or praise
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each teller for his tale
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for the most part they are pleased by
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stories that sound convincing
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stories that they can relate to
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emotionally
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even to the even when the content of the
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tales is brutal
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or gruesome as some of them are
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feng mongong stories and those of his
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contemporary author lingmong chu
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were all based on earlier narratives
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they built on and expanded what other
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writers had written before
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by contrast these idle talk stories are
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deliberately and regularly
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disrespectful of their sources when
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based on earlier narratives
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aina turns his source stories on their
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heads
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idle talk tales and challenge
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the veracity and validity of
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conventional stories
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and the values they ostensibly embody
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00:10:02,839 --> 00:10:07,920
there
291
00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:09,360
i'd get to other elements uh that set
292
00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,040
this collection apart from its
293
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,399
predecessors in a few minutes
294
00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,480
but first i want to talk a little bit
295
00:10:12,399 --> 00:10:16,399
about the book as a material object
296
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,519
and the processes involved in its
297
00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:18,959
production
298
00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:20,640
as you will see i believe that the
299
00:10:18,959 --> 00:10:22,959
physical form of the collection
300
00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,240
suggests something of its overall
301
00:10:22,959 --> 00:10:27,200
significance
302
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:28,320
this is the fung man or the style or the
303
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,000
title sheet
304
00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,680
it functions like the title page in
305
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,079
modern books to introduce the title the
306
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,560
author
307
00:10:32,079 --> 00:10:36,320
and the printer sometimes fung men carry
308
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,920
a few lines of advertisement although
309
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,320
this one is playing by convent
310
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,000
by comparison which was a fashion of
311
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,600
early chain printers
312
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,600
these fung men were printed on thin
313
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:49,279
paper just as the other sheets
314
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:51,519
in the book the process of making copies
315
00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:53,040
of a book in 17th century china
316
00:10:51,519 --> 00:10:55,200
could be carried out by very few
317
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:57,680
craftspeople in any one project
318
00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,079
they could be either men or women first
319
00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:01,120
a scribe usually professional would
320
00:11:00,079 --> 00:11:03,760
write out on thin
321
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,640
paper the entire text in standard form
322
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,760
characters
323
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,600
of uniform size each page had the same
324
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,600
number of lines and each line
325
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,800
had the same number of characters red
326
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,560
top to bottom
327
00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:18,160
right to left as in all other texts
328
00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:20,240
then each sheet would be deliberately
329
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:24,560
pasted down on
330
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:26,560
printing boards on which the spaces
331
00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:29,279
around the lines of the characters
332
00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,320
would be carefully carved out by very
333
00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:33,760
careful
334
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:36,720
process leaving the characters
335
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,760
on the board in reverse the board would
336
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,320
be linked
337
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,200
at be inked i'm sorry a sheet of thin
338
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,760
paper would
339
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,720
be laid down upon it patted uniformly
340
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,519
all over
341
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,720
and then you could pull off a printed
342
00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:50,639
sheet
343
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,959
up to a thousand or more copies could be
344
00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,959
pulled pulled from a single block
345
00:11:52,959 --> 00:11:56,160
although it appears usually a print run
346
00:11:54,959 --> 00:11:59,279
for fiction was far
347
00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,240
fewer than that this is from china's
348
00:11:59,279 --> 00:12:02,000
first novel the
349
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,320
popular romance on the chronicles of the
350
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:08,000
three kingdoms sanger tungsuyani
351
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:10,399
printed in 1522. you'll notice
352
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,760
that the center column here sort of
353
00:12:10,399 --> 00:12:13,839
disappears
354
00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,279
that's because when this book was first
355
00:12:13,839 --> 00:12:17,120
printed uh
356
00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:19,360
the pages were folded so that the
357
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:24,160
printed sides faced each other
358
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:27,279
and the uh middle of the page was glued
359
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,920
to the spine and that's what
360
00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:29,920
made the book
361
00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:36,160
excuse me by the late ming however
362
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:38,959
around 1600 it was much more common
363
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,160
to have the printed sides folded out
364
00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:42,480
this left the wide
365
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,000
outside margins of the pages to be sewn
366
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,480
together to form
367
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,240
the spine of the book in that form and
368
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,720
this way the center column with the
369
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,000
block
370
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:54,000
number becomes the page number
371
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,040
these printed pages were sewn into
372
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,959
fascicles
373
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,160
which might be protected in pasteboard
374
00:12:56,959 --> 00:13:00,320
covers
375
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:03,519
but it appears that most books were not
376
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,519
sold in covers
377
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,240
here's an example of a recent edition of
378
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,600
illustrations reprinted from a 17th
379
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:13,519
century imprint of
380
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,680
auschwitz a novel known in english
381
00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:18,079
as the water margin or outlaws of the
382
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,079
marsh
383
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,800
excuse me note that the image is
384
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:25,680
constituted
385
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,399
by half on each of the two adjoining
386
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:30,639
sides of two different sheets of paper
387
00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:32,399
so far the printing of the idle talk was
388
00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:34,800
completely conventional following the
389
00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:36,480
standards i've just shown you here
390
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,920
now most books printed in the 17th
391
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:42,160
century were illustrated
392
00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,320
the process of producing illustrations
393
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,399
was the same as that for texts
394
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,639
an artist would draw an image on thin
395
00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:49,839
paper that was then pasted face down on
396
00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:52,720
a board
397
00:13:49,839 --> 00:13:54,240
all the blank spaces carved out to ready
398
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,480
the board for printing
399
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,240
but while the text became standardized
400
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,800
in style and form
401
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,120
of written characters the image and
402
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,279
images in printed books might reveal
403
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,199
a great range of artistic
404
00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:09,839
experimentation
405
00:14:07,199 --> 00:14:11,199
the han hilo imprint of idle talk under
406
00:14:09,839 --> 00:14:13,920
the bean arbor the earliest
407
00:14:11,199 --> 00:14:16,639
extant edition is one of the most
408
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,560
noteworthy in this regard its images
409
00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:19,519
seem to have been drawn and carved by
410
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,360
the same artist
411
00:14:19,519 --> 00:14:22,639
who produced images for several other
412
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,440
books of fiction
413
00:14:22,639 --> 00:14:26,800
around the same time this person
414
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,639
presumably male
415
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,800
produced unusually imaginative symbolic
416
00:14:29,639 --> 00:14:33,839
representations
417
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,680
of events characters and situations in
418
00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:37,920
which the fiction
419
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,880
in the fiction being illustrated and
420
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:43,519
this he was quite
421
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:46,800
unconventional so here's the
422
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:48,000
first idle talk illustration with
423
00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,560
ambiguous
424
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,519
hints at the content of the book the
425
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,519
bean vines
426
00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:55,279
growing on an arbor presumably refer to
427
00:14:53,519 --> 00:14:55,839
the imagined setting for the tales to be
428
00:14:55,279 --> 00:14:58,560
told
429
00:14:55,839 --> 00:15:00,000
as in the title of the book but the
430
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,800
poetic couplet
431
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,160
mentions a herd of horses which must
432
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,600
refer to the manchu
433
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,600
cavalry as in this translation i assume
434
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,800
that the couplet here was written by the
435
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,079
illustrator
436
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,680
as his comment upon reading the stories
437
00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:17,519
i'll talk more about the relevance of
438
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,399
this couplet to the collection
439
00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:20,399
in a few minutes
440
00:15:20,959 --> 00:15:24,639
the second image of idle talk under the
441
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,720
brenar bean arbor
442
00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:28,320
imagines the setting of the fictional
443
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,240
storytelling
444
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,480
half of the image was printed from two
445
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,000
blocks the pages then bound together to
446
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:37,279
make one stylistically
447
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,120
conventional picture the illustrations
448
00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,199
are followed by a preface
449
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,480
the preface was ostensibly written by a
450
00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:44,160
friend of the author
451
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,320
it praises the brilliance of the
452
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,560
author's stories and forewarns us of
453
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:51,279
aina's subversive uses
454
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,320
of earlier narratives it says in part
455
00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:55,040
quote
456
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,639
he brashly appended the 21 official
457
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,720
dynastic histories
458
00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:59,680
looking for accounts of insignificant
459
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,000
matters
460
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,680
he closely studied the 18 buddhist
461
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,560
arhat's discourses on
462
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,600
cause and effect he has hastened through
463
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,639
old legends
464
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,839
as well whether about what is wrong or
465
00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:15,440
what is right
466
00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:19,519
his stories instantly inspire reverence
467
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,839
among his readers interesting statement
468
00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:22,800
then comes a forward in which the author
469
00:16:21,839 --> 00:16:25,360
attributes his
470
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,240
inspiration to a series of poems by a
471
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,440
local poet
472
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,240
of an earlier day but no record has ever
473
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,639
been found that could identify that poet
474
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,519
apparently aina the layman wished to
475
00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,079
present his
476
00:16:35,519 --> 00:16:38,800
pic his readers with puzzles that would
477
00:16:38,079 --> 00:16:41,279
arrest their
478
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,480
uh reading and cause them to pay close
479
00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:44,639
attention
480
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,320
this motivation seems to lie behind the
481
00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:48,079
contents of the stories
482
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,959
and the relationships to the
483
00:16:48,079 --> 00:16:54,079
illustrations as well
484
00:16:50,959 --> 00:16:56,160
the first story session is
485
00:16:54,079 --> 00:16:58,800
is introduced by explaining the bean
486
00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:01,120
arbor as a social gathering place
487
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,120
people can set in the shade of the bean
488
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,240
vines there to avoid the scorching
489
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,799
summer sun
490
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,880
and will enjoy a bit of breeze the
491
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:10,559
audience is not fixed over the course of
492
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,520
12 storytelling sessions in the
493
00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:14,480
collection
494
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:17,280
people come and go and different voices
495
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,520
respond to the tales in different ways
496
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,959
and an aspect of the formal realism of
497
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,439
these stories that contrast
498
00:17:20,959 --> 00:17:25,120
sharply from earlier short story
499
00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:27,280
collections
500
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:29,120
this general setting a kind of frame
501
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,400
story for the rest of the tales
502
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:33,760
is itself new no earlier vernacular
503
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,559
fiction writers
504
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,919
has dramatized the telling of stories in
505
00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:40,080
this way
506
00:17:37,919 --> 00:17:42,080
nor had any illustrator represented the
507
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,960
reception of conventional
508
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:46,400
fictional tales as individuals from a
509
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,559
broad swath
510
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:52,799
of chinese society in form
511
00:17:50,559 --> 00:17:54,000
the illustration for session one is
512
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:55,520
conventional
513
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,280
but it's the content that's
514
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,200
unconventional by representing the
515
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,559
setting in the actions in the native and
516
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,480
the narrative
517
00:18:00,559 --> 00:18:04,720
in this illustration a small crowd
518
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,480
assembles the illustrator envisions the
519
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,120
bean arbor to be in her water
520
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,960
for a cooling breeze he portrays people
521
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:13,679
of all ages coming together and an older
522
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:16,880
man perhaps the owner of the arbor
523
00:18:13,679 --> 00:18:19,200
sitting in the place of honor this older
524
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,960
man greets his guests and seems ready to
525
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,799
tell them a story
526
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,039
the audience and setting have been
527
00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:27,520
established having been established
528
00:18:25,039 --> 00:18:28,480
this first session begins with a common
529
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,080
topic
530
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,080
jealousy among women
531
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:38,320
this is the illustration for session one
532
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,480
the two-headed two-tailed bird
533
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,039
and it has a poetic couplet the couplet
534
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,880
reads in the west the jealousy bird has
535
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:47,280
one body but two heads
536
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,919
when male and female are at odds their
537
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,440
two necks
538
00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:53,120
strangle each other please and thought
539
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,200
another version of this reference makes
540
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:57,120
no mention of gender differences instead
541
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,440
it tells that the same bird the chi
542
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:02,559
ponyo the old lady bird
543
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:05,440
which says something has had
544
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,120
has two independent heads while one head
545
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,600
is sleeping the other head ate a
546
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,080
pressure
547
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,679
a delicious flower when the first head
548
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,200
awoke and found it had
549
00:19:11,679 --> 00:19:17,760
had it missed out on the flower it
550
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,720
ate a poisonous flower instead and not
551
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,919
surprisingly
552
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:24,400
the bird and both heads died hence the
553
00:19:21,919 --> 00:19:26,960
image is the embodiment of jealousy
554
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,919
but the inscription specifies it as a
555
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,679
male versus
556
00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:32,960
female the storytelling session begins
557
00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:35,280
with a young man
558
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,960
from the audience voices a complaint
559
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,600
perhaps he's about the ages of you
560
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,039
students in a book he has been reading a
561
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,720
poem strikes him as
562
00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:45,120
unbelievable the poem says the bite of a
563
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,000
green
564
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,679
of a green bamboo viper the stinger on
565
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,400
the rump of a bee
566
00:19:49,679 --> 00:19:53,200
neither can be as poisonous as the heart
567
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,799
of a woman
568
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,880
can be presumably because of his
569
00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,799
romantic youthfulness the young man
570
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,960
rejects the idea that women can be so
571
00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:05,600
powerfully jealous jealous
572
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,720
a more experienced elder perhaps of my
573
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,960
age
574
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,919
explains that jealousy is a common topic
575
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,240
for gossip
576
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:14,240
and a common experience among married
577
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,320
couples
578
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,559
here's a new narrative technique to
579
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,000
personify an emotional response to
580
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:23,039
something a person has
581
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,400
read the elder then tells of a book
582
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:28,000
titled a mirror of jealousy which has
583
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,000
been written for male readers
584
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,919
the book explains how to avoid more
585
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,200
extreme forms of jealousy and how men
586
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:35,679
can help their wives
587
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,360
learn to be moderate in their demands
588
00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:39,600
but the old man relates
589
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:41,120
women got hold of the book and learned
590
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:45,360
from it how to become
591
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:48,080
more shrewish in treating their husbands
592
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,880
they even demanded a sequel with further
593
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,400
instruction
594
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,240
on how to be even worse now to me this
595
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,559
anecdote seems to be
596
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,679
a wry comment on the unintended
597
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,080
consequences of
598
00:20:57,679 --> 00:21:01,919
print in an age when literacy was
599
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,320
spreading well beyond the privileged
600
00:21:01,919 --> 00:21:05,520
male
601
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:07,600
elite many male members of the educated
602
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:09,600
elite in late imperial china felt women
603
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,520
should not be taught to read
604
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,840
they feared that literate women might
605
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:17,200
upset the status quo for privileged male
606
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,960
elite i suppose aina's story
607
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,360
to attest to the growing audience of
608
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,559
women readers and it does exemplify the
609
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,760
idea promoted
610
00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:28,480
by other fiction writers as well that
611
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,440
what people read influences how they
612
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,240
think
613
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,280
and how they act this assumption is an
614
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,400
old idea
615
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,559
after all it is implicit in the
616
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,000
traditional notion that scholars of the
617
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:42,720
confucian classics
618
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,960
automatically become moral exemplars
619
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,120
simply by imbibing the values and what
620
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,200
they have read
621
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,720
however the historical record does not
622
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,880
validate that assumption
623
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,799
confucian train administrators were not
624
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,120
necessarily good men
625
00:21:54,799 --> 00:21:58,960
the story collection debunks that idea
626
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:01,840
as well
627
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,120
then another old man proceeds to tell of
628
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,400
the jealous woman
629
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:08,480
ford on a river where women have women
630
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,880
have to make themselves look ugly
631
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,720
in order to cross safely attractive
632
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,440
women are likely to be drowned on the
633
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,720
way across
634
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,960
by a vindictive woman demon this demon
635
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,799
was originally a jealous wife
636
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,200
she had been married to a foolish man
637
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:24,480
who was aroused by reading an ancient
638
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,640
poetic description
639
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,240
of a goddess a goddess who is
640
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,000
purportedly more beautiful than his
641
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,559
plain wife
642
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,320
worse yet he exclaims his wish to have
643
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:36,559
such a glorious mate
644
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,039
his jealous wife is outraged and she
645
00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:41,280
drowns herself in chagrin
646
00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:43,360
but she returns as a vengeful ghost
647
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,400
lying in wait to drag him into the river
648
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:47,360
with her
649
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,440
she succeeds and she extends her
650
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,080
vindictiveness to any other attractive
651
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,120
woman
652
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,679
who might want to cross the river a
653
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:56,799
second
654
00:22:53,679 --> 00:22:59,200
main tale of this story
655
00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,000
expands a convention that was developing
656
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,120
through the sixth
657
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,640
uh 17th century of combining two or even
658
00:23:03,120 --> 00:23:08,480
three short narratives on
659
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,960
similar topics into one longer story
660
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,880
excuse me the final tale in this session
661
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,320
is an example of one upsmanship in
662
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,360
storytelling
663
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,840
it kind of recounts the appearance of an
664
00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:22,320
even more ferocious female demon
665
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,200
that can only be pacified by a shrine in
666
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,000
her honor
667
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:28,400
and maybe not even then the main tale
668
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:33,280
rewrites the legend of of uh
669
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:36,080
judge retweet in the seventh century bce
670
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,000
the handsome jedway was happily married
671
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,760
to a beautiful woman
672
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,919
but he was the loyal bodyguard of a
673
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,480
noble named chunger who flees for his
674
00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:45,679
life
675
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,840
from his rival's assassins jia
676
00:23:45,679 --> 00:23:51,279
accompanies his lord as they are
677
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,279
continuously on the run for 19 years
678
00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:55,200
but during those decades je never
679
00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:56,880
informs his wife of her of their
680
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,760
whereabouts in order to
681
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,000
escape detection but because he has
682
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,000
apparently just disappeared
683
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,520
jez wife thinks he must have taken up
684
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,679
with another woman
685
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,080
and a lump of jealousy grows in her
686
00:24:07,679 --> 00:24:13,360
heart as her frustration
687
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,000
and anger build over the years
688
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,440
but in his own mind jizz tell the
689
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000
faithful husband
690
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,120
and when his lord finally gains power
691
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,600
judged way
692
00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:26,000
finally goes home but his wife does not
693
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,880
believe his tale of dutiful service
694
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,480
as an excuse for his absence again it's
695
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,360
another story that's not believed this
696
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,480
is the theme
697
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:37,120
in this collection despite his po
698
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,880
protests of fidelity the wife keeps him
699
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:41,679
on a leash like a dog
700
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,760
to prevent his running off again when
701
00:24:41,679 --> 00:24:45,279
his former superior can't find jia in
702
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,440
order to reward him
703
00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:48,559
the lord tries to force jesuit way out
704
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,640
of hiding
705
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,919
he has the forest burned down on the
706
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,480
mountain where jesuit way
707
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:55,200
has been living instead of fleeing the
708
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,159
flames
709
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,200
jesuit way builds another fire to ensure
710
00:24:58,159 --> 00:25:02,480
that he and his wife
711
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:06,000
perish in the conflagration together
712
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:09,440
they die in each other's embrace later
713
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:12,720
a small hard object is found in their
714
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,960
burned corpses it is the stone that
715
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,480
formed from her 20 years of
716
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:21,440
gnawing jealousy when it is smashed
717
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,279
bits fly all across the land where they
718
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:26,640
can still be found
719
00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:28,320
in jealous women everywhere now there's
720
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,000
commentary that follows
721
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,320
this session as with all the other
722
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,240
sessions in the book
723
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,600
and it notes that female jealousy and
724
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,559
male dread are only
725
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:40,400
natural but notes that jealousy is not
726
00:25:38,559 --> 00:25:42,480
specific to women
727
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,600
hence the story becomes a parable on
728
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,080
self-centeredness
729
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,039
as the commentator says the conduct of
730
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,760
the petty
731
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:51,760
and their extreme persecution of others
732
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,840
close quote
733
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,600
thus the story is as moralistic as the
734
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,480
confucian classics
735
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,799
however it is a parody showing that good
736
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,360
intentions and conflicting obligations
737
00:26:00,799 --> 00:26:03,520
may have
738
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,039
very negative outcomes and that
739
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,360
traditional behavioral
740
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,960
behavioral standards should be
741
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,360
questioned
742
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,360
structurally session number one has
743
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,320
several old men telling stories that
744
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:17,279
they had heard from
745
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,320
other men the men who tell the stories
746
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:20,720
under the bean arbor
747
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,400
simply relate what they had heard their
748
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,720
personal experience consists
749
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,520
only in encountering storytellers who
750
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,400
themselves
751
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,799
tell what they had heard this produces a
752
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,159
series of stories within stories within
753
00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:35,279
a story
754
00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:37,400
this is an innovation of idle talk it
755
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:39,120
creates a spiral of narrative
756
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,200
unreliability
757
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,919
in which the ambiguity of the sources
758
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:47,679
makes the validity of any one story
759
00:26:43,919 --> 00:26:49,600
indeterminable that is in contrast to
760
00:26:47,679 --> 00:26:50,640
fun mongolian stories and others of the
761
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,640
time
762
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,559
the truthfulness and reality really
763
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,880
reliability of these stories
764
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:58,320
are questioned are they real to the
765
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:02,080
extent that they can reveal
766
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:04,320
some uh truth about contemporary society
767
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,480
here the audience rejects these stories
768
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,279
as largely implausible
769
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:11,279
or maybe they don't want to believe them
770
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:13,440
these stories seem to reveal
771
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:14,799
men's hidden fears of their wives
772
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,840
abilities
773
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:21,200
and their own vulnerable their own
774
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:24,399
unreliability
775
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,880
interestingly interestingly the tale of
776
00:27:24,399 --> 00:27:27,279
judge
777
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,960
way assumes that no man would remain
778
00:27:27,279 --> 00:27:32,240
faithful to his wife
779
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,399
while being away from home for 20 years
780
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,000
says something about men at the time as
781
00:27:34,399 --> 00:27:38,480
well
782
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,200
so here is another way that the dopang
783
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,440
stories
784
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,279
are different from fang long stories
785
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,679
they are not reliable
786
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:46,960
as witnesses of the standards for proper
787
00:27:45,679 --> 00:27:48,720
behavior
788
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,080
instead of being superficial in their
789
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,880
moralization
790
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,760
as some earlier short stories seem to be
791
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,279
this session
792
00:27:53,760 --> 00:28:01,120
reveals painful truths about some people
793
00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:04,320
it reveals their fears and insecurity
794
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:06,240
their frustrations and anger and the
795
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,200
real violence hidden just below the
796
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,399
surface
797
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,640
in many conventional human interactions
798
00:28:10,399 --> 00:28:14,640
and i might add that crime reports from
799
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,799
the ching imperial archives reveal
800
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,960
precisely the same thing
801
00:28:16,799 --> 00:28:20,480
the harmony that ideally prevailed in
802
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,559
chinese society
803
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,600
masked the tendency toward murderous
804
00:28:22,559 --> 00:28:27,679
violence
805
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:30,399
among desperate people the antecedents
806
00:28:27,679 --> 00:28:32,960
for the prologue stories in session one
807
00:28:30,399 --> 00:28:35,360
were folk myths about pretrus
808
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,120
treacherous river crossings the
809
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:39,279
conventional tale of jejutway is
810
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,240
generally a tribute to the ideal
811
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:43,679
faithful servant the courageous and
812
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,480
resourceful man
813
00:28:43,679 --> 00:28:47,039
who values dutiful service to his lord
814
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,000
more than
815
00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:51,120
family obligations it's curious that a
816
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,960
story like this should
817
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:57,039
persist through time the legal codes of
818
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,880
the later dynasties mandated putting
819
00:28:57,039 --> 00:28:59,600
traditional family obligations to
820
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,159
parents
821
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,720
ahead of other duties but in the hands
822
00:29:02,159 --> 00:29:05,279
of this
823
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,159
anonymous writer aina such faithful
824
00:29:05,279 --> 00:29:08,080
service
825
00:29:06,159 --> 00:29:09,279
is shown to be impractical or even
826
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,919
foolish
827
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:13,520
here jejutoy is ridiculed as a pawn who
828
00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:16,640
kills his wife and himself
829
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:18,720
to end an intolerable situation because
830
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,840
he cannot think of any means
831
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:25,039
to assert his personal integrity
832
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,640
that's a troubling idea session one sets
833
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:28,240
the pattern for the sessions or the
834
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,720
stories that follow
835
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,120
in each some honored tradition or social
836
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,000
assumption or respected practice
837
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,559
is held up to ridicule as patrick hannon
838
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,399
noted
839
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:40,960
these stories strip away all of the
840
00:29:38,399 --> 00:29:44,240
moral and moral authority
841
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:47,760
of received tales leaving the values
842
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,679
they represent as ambiguous at best
843
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,320
this effect of subversion of
844
00:29:49,679 --> 00:29:54,240
conventional standards
845
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600
although there are moments of levity in
846
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,600
some of the stories and some are
847
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,919
relatively light-hearted
848
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,919
they do get progressively bleaker as one
849
00:29:59,919 --> 00:30:03,360
reads through the collection
850
00:30:01,919 --> 00:30:06,080
now i want to take a quick look at the
851
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,120
two stories uh from the collection that
852
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,000
you students of
853
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,919
will usher have read and then i'll
854
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,760
return to talk about the context in
855
00:30:11,919 --> 00:30:18,399
which the collection
856
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:22,880
appeared now here's the illustration
857
00:30:18,399 --> 00:30:26,159
for session seven it's labeled a logio
858
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:29,679
a seashell boat this legendary
859
00:30:26,159 --> 00:30:30,559
submersible ship shaped like a snail
860
00:30:29,679 --> 00:30:32,399
shell
861
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:34,640
could travel at the bottom of the sea
862
00:30:32,399 --> 00:30:37,039
without admitting any water
863
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,720
references to this miraculous watercraft
864
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:39,679
appeared about the time of the first
865
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,440
emperor
866
00:30:39,679 --> 00:30:43,760
in the third century before the common
867
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,320
era chinchilla huang had
868
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,600
sought it out because of his fascination
869
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,600
with the supernatural
870
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,360
and of course his quest for a personal
871
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,080
immortality
872
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,720
however this reference to chinchilla and
873
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,120
the image
874
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,080
are only tangentially relevant to this
875
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,200
story
876
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,519
the link is very weak in their youth
877
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,640
the brothers boy in shuchi had lived
878
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:07,120
near the sea
879
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,159
as did zhangziya the chief adviser to
880
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,440
the joe kings
881
00:31:08,159 --> 00:31:13,840
and to the duke of joe this
882
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,840
johns it is jang zaya who saves the
883
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,799
brothers from being slaughtered by king
884
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,519
uh they
885
00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:22,159
insult him but there is no connection
886
00:31:21,519 --> 00:31:25,039
with the fen
887
00:31:22,159 --> 00:31:26,960
to the fantastic ship for either the
888
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:29,600
brothers or the gianzia the link
889
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,960
is only that they both lived on the
890
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,880
seashore
891
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,000
the ambiguity of this image in this
892
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,600
context
893
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,000
begs the question whether this
894
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,960
illustration was only meant to pique
895
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:44,840
reader's curiosity or maybe even to
896
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,000
highlight the impossibility of shuchi's
897
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,320
story
898
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,480
you know the story inverts the
899
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,720
traditional tale of the brothers
900
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,679
who chose to starve themselves to death
901
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,360
in the mountains
902
00:31:53,679 --> 00:31:57,840
in order to maintain the lofty
903
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,039
traditional precedent for the oldest son
904
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,799
to succeed his father in noble rank
905
00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:04,640
here they also chide the founder of the
906
00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:05,760
new joe dynasty for failing in his
907
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,760
ritual duties
908
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,960
filial duties to bury his father with
909
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,760
the appropriate
910
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,039
ceremonies of mourning their devotion
911
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,919
was always seen
912
00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:18,159
as meeting the ultimate test of whether
913
00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:20,240
a person would be willing to die to
914
00:32:18,159 --> 00:32:22,399
uphold his principles
915
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,640
in the case of boy in shuchi the
916
00:32:22,399 --> 00:32:26,880
challenge was more extreme
917
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,399
would they maintain their loyalty to a
918
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:32,159
lost cause
919
00:32:28,399 --> 00:32:34,720
and moreover to an unworthy ruler
920
00:32:32,159 --> 00:32:36,399
in aina's story shuchi complains
921
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,840
explains his motivations for leaving
922
00:32:36,399 --> 00:32:40,559
their mountain retreat
923
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,640
they're numerous and fairly complicated
924
00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:44,880
this story seems to me to be cluttered
925
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,880
with details about competition for ferns
926
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,080
to eat and the vegetarian beasts of
927
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,279
playa prey
928
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,080
that live on the mountains tigers eating
929
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:55,679
ferns don't
930
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:57,600
strike me as convincing shuchi dresses
931
00:32:55,679 --> 00:32:59,120
himself in an odd costume when he
932
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,840
deserts his brother
933
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,640
he convinces the beasts of the mountain
934
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,200
to reser
935
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,120
to reassert their bloodthirsty nature
936
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,399
and then makes plans to ingratiate
937
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,600
himself
938
00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:13,840
to the new joe ruler but then he is
939
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,840
captured by the ghoulish remains of his
940
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,240
former rulers forces
941
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,519
what are we to make of them beside their
942
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,720
grotesque wounds
943
00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:24,640
and their mindless craving for revenge
944
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,399
does the buddhist deity who explains the
945
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,640
appropriateness of change
946
00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:30,799
in the political realm at the end of the
947
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,760
story seem convincing to you
948
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:35,279
as modern readers this is not just a
949
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,679
scary story
950
00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:39,760
i feel that it was of personal relevance
951
00:33:37,679 --> 00:33:42,640
to many of its intended readers
952
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,519
in 17th century china i'll get back to
953
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,519
that in a moment
954
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,080
ostensibly session 11 in death commander
955
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,880
dong
956
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,399
re-beheads his enemy is a story about
957
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,880
karma and retribution
958
00:33:56,399 --> 00:34:00,640
in which the lustful and cruel commander
959
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,440
nan is executed
960
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,440
for his sins but this bandit leader is
961
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,000
too powerful too well protected for
962
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,760
anyone to
963
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,320
carry out this richly deserved
964
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,280
punishment it takes a dead man to do the
965
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,320
job
966
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,919
a dead good man one who did not deserve
967
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,240
to die
968
00:34:15,919 --> 00:34:19,599
one might look at this dana mall as
969
00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:22,159
heaven's will
970
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:24,159
one could also see it as fantasy as wish
971
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:26,879
fulfillment as well
972
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:28,079
final nerve impulses may cause a body to
973
00:34:26,879 --> 00:34:30,879
move
974
00:34:28,079 --> 00:34:33,200
soon after death but dead men not even
975
00:34:30,879 --> 00:34:35,520
those put astride their battle horses
976
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,760
do not have the ability to swing a sword
977
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:40,960
much less the aim to deftly
978
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,240
lop off an enemy's head nor do horses
979
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,359
necessarily know which
980
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:47,520
man is his master's enemy and have the
981
00:34:45,359 --> 00:34:48,720
ability to find ways to kill that man
982
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,639
before dropping dead
983
00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:53,440
itself however conventional chinese
984
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:56,480
beliefs
985
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:58,400
and traditional chinese beliefs death is
986
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,800
not necessarily the end
987
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:03,040
common people may return as ghosts as in
988
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,640
the spectral army that confront shuchi
989
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,800
in session seven
990
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,839
but in pre-modern china the virtuous
991
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,800
could also become
992
00:35:07,839 --> 00:35:12,800
local gods by manifesting their spirits
993
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,359
to help the living
994
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,320
the story reports that commander dong
995
00:35:15,359 --> 00:35:19,280
did just this
996
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:22,000
in the period after his death so perhaps
997
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,880
the villain is killed by a vengeful god
998
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,160
rather than by a dead man as a function
999
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,800
of the moral universe
1000
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:32,480
rather than as personal revenge the
1001
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,560
story is ambiguous at this point
1002
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,920
and then there's the prologue story for
1003
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,240
this session
1004
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,920
the gothic tale of a traveler who
1005
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:42,720
encounters a living corpse
1006
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,359
on a dark and stormy night something
1007
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,880
that
1008
00:35:43,359 --> 00:35:48,880
could have been made in medieval europe
1009
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,480
the body seems to have been killed when
1010
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,000
his head was cut off
1011
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,480
but officials from the underworld
1012
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,079
certifies not yet fated to die
1013
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,520
and he has done nothing wrong he's an
1014
00:35:56,079 --> 00:36:00,240
innocent victim
1015
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,720
of wanton violence consequently this
1016
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:05,839
hapless man is restored to life
1017
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:07,359
but he's still lacking ahead even so he
1018
00:36:05,839 --> 00:36:09,599
must work to earn a living
1019
00:36:07,359 --> 00:36:13,599
despite his condition which is a very
1020
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:15,440
odd dash of ghoulish humor in my opinion
1021
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:17,839
the headless man's experience is
1022
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,680
explained to a traveler in a story told
1023
00:36:17,839 --> 00:36:20,480
by an old man who has lived through the
1024
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,920
period
1025
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,359
in which these stories are set it was an
1026
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,000
age of anarchy
1027
00:36:25,359 --> 00:36:32,160
brutality lust and want and bloodshed
1028
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,280
the vision the old man presents may have
1029
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,160
been inspired
1030
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,320
by the author's personal observations
1031
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,800
assuming that he lived through the 1630s
1032
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,280
and 1640s as an adult
1033
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,920
the story portrays a totally dystopian
1034
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,839
world
1035
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,040
a world now passed in the time of the
1036
00:36:45,839 --> 00:36:50,480
telling but alive
1037
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:52,960
in the memory of the teller so what was
1038
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,920
the nature of that reality
1039
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,720
we readers must ask can men live without
1040
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,720
a head
1041
00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:01,520
can a corpse swing a sword and kill an
1042
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:03,920
enemy since the answer to both questions
1043
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,920
can only be negative
1044
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,640
we must question why this gruesome
1045
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,800
fantasy was written in a break with the
1046
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:15,200
conventions of the story form
1047
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:16,960
that exemplifies formal realism
1048
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,599
now to me the story brings out the
1049
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,440
helplessness and the hopelessness
1050
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:24,160
of those who cannot emotionally
1051
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,400
withstand the horrors of their age
1052
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,599
a tale that embodies the ongoing
1053
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:30,800
nightmares
1054
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:32,960
of post-traumatic stress disorder
1055
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,000
in the writers reality in ours there can
1056
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,760
be no
1057
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,320
extension of life for the murdered
1058
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,640
innocent no revenge for the virtuous man
1059
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,320
who falls into a villain's trap
1060
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,400
the real horrors of the story are not
1061
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:47,599
the bloody tales it tells
1062
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,920
but what those tales refer to
1063
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:50,880
the events that serve to inspire this
1064
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,599
fiction
1065
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,480
and that can be used as a standard as a
1066
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:58,640
standard
1067
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,640
against which to compare the veracity
1068
00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,160
i can only conclude that the anonymous
1069
00:38:02,839 --> 00:38:06,160
inaudible
1070
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,400
witnessed the senseless sufferings
1071
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,400
caused by banditry and war
1072
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,480
and the decades of anarchy as the mingy
1073
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,800
empire collapsed
1074
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,800
and before the invading manchus clamped
1075
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,000
down on all violence that they
1076
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,119
themselves did not
1077
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,079
initiate or perhaps he heard about the
1078
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:25,280
suffering more
1079
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:27,280
through the tales told by others despite
1080
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,800
the brief references to commander dong's
1081
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,880
spiritual reappearance
1082
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:36,160
after his death this equation of reality
1083
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:38,800
although passed with dystopia
1084
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:40,079
explodes the utopian ideals of late
1085
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,880
imperial china
1086
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:43,760
for personal behavior and for the social
1087
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,839
harmony
1088
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,839
in general
1089
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,119
generally the subversion of ideals in
1090
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,000
this and other stories
1091
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:57,119
constitutes the contrariness in this
1092
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,680
collection
1093
00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:00,800
idle talk under the bean arbor achieves
1094
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,040
this subversion
1095
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,480
specifically through the ironic
1096
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,800
inversions of received wisdom
1097
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,720
the idea that society should ideally be
1098
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,640
organized hierarchically and that women
1099
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:14,880
should be passive and suburban
1100
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,680
subservient to males because of their
1101
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,800
subs
1102
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,680
supposed weaknesses is blown away by the
1103
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,640
story that shows how easily men can be
1104
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,760
put under
1105
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,680
women's control the idea that buddhist
1106
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:31,119
clerics should be devoted to their faith
1107
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:33,920
and not pursue wealth and privilege
1108
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:34,400
is torn apart by the stories in which
1109
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,280
the
1110
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,040
monks are only pretending to be monks
1111
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,160
really highwaymen
1112
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,040
and other stories about which in which
1113
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,200
the
1114
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,960
monks seem to be more concerned with
1115
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,960
accumulating money
1116
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,920
than in helping their believers reach
1117
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,599
any kind of salvation
1118
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,599
the idea that the common people are
1119
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:56,480
lacking in ethical standards and must be
1120
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:59,599
taught by
1121
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:03,280
not to be moral by educated men this
1122
00:39:59,599 --> 00:40:05,920
ideal extends to the proposition
1123
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,319
that fiction is good because it teaches
1124
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,200
people
1125
00:40:06,319 --> 00:40:10,319
proper confucian morals to women and
1126
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,319
youth
1127
00:40:10,319 --> 00:40:14,880
this assertion appears in the prefaces
1128
00:40:12,319 --> 00:40:17,280
to many novels and story collections
1129
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,720
as a rationale for the social valley
1130
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,680
value of history
1131
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:22,640
i'm sorry the social value of fiction
1132
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,640
but of course
1133
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,839
there are some very good characters in
1134
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,280
these stories
1135
00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:31,680
who are in fact uneducated
1136
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,280
and the idea that confucian values
1137
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,920
derived from ancient texts
1138
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,720
are genuine and effective but in these
1139
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,040
stories
1140
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:41,119
those supposed universal values come out
1141
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,280
as scholarly bombast
1142
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:44,960
and often conventional rationales for
1143
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,520
personal benefit
1144
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,079
as patrick hannon has written aina's
1145
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,119
fiction
1146
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:54,720
questions the very basis of belief
1147
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:56,560
in a morally determined universe
1148
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:58,240
which seems to me to strike at the very
1149
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:02,560
core of
1150
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:02,560
chinese culture traditionally
1151
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:08,240
to sum up some of the some of the themes
1152
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,079
in idle talk under the bean arbor
1153
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:12,319
there's violence and uncertainty
1154
00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:13,920
displacement deception disillusionment
1155
00:41:12,319 --> 00:41:15,920
paranoia
1156
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,839
and the retreat of the literati from
1157
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,560
their dominant role in society as
1158
00:41:17,839 --> 00:41:22,960
sources of moral guidance
1159
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,400
there's unpredictability in human
1160
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:28,000
affairs
1161
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:30,160
even in the finality of death
1162
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,880
fate and personal self-interest as the
1163
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:38,079
causes for events in their outcomes
1164
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:40,000
is up for grabs which is it is it either
1165
00:41:38,079 --> 00:41:42,240
the stories in idle talk question or
1166
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,240
subvert conventional visions of the past
1167
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:45,440
by rewriting earlier stories to make
1168
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:48,480
them more brutal
1169
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,920
less elitist less romantic more common
1170
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,160
sensible
1171
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,240
they intervene in trent in tradition by
1172
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,000
rewriting moralistic tales of legendary
1173
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:59,599
figures like shisher
1174
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,920
or jager toy they intervene in society
1175
00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:04,000
by questioning concepts of loyalty as in
1176
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,760
the story of shuchi
1177
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:11,200
and family obligations to support a
1178
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,680
headless brother among one other things
1179
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,640
ewing both using both caricature and
1180
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,800
challenge
1181
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,920
these stories question the validity and
1182
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,079
importance
1183
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,960
of new confucian thought i haven't
1184
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:26,240
mentioned the 12th story but
1185
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,280
it is uh simply a lecture by a confucian
1186
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,319
scholar
1187
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:33,920
which is pure nonsense and
1188
00:42:30,319 --> 00:42:37,359
is questioned for being just that
1189
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,359
by members of the audience
1190
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,800
now idle talk stories are the
1191
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:46,240
culmination of a century of development
1192
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:48,319
of the vernacular short story
1193
00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:49,920
structural elements became conventional
1194
00:42:48,319 --> 00:42:51,599
through their successful use
1195
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,440
and development by fangmonglong in
1196
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:55,520
historic collections
1197
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,280
they include stories told in prose with
1198
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,359
poem interruptions to comment on
1199
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,880
characters and events the omniscient and
1200
00:42:59,359 --> 00:43:03,680
consistent narrative
1201
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,520
the reuse and adaptation or extension of
1202
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,400
earlier story materials
1203
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,960
with emphasis on the values of the elite
1204
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:14,480
these are the conventions of form
1205
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:17,280
in collections like collections
1206
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,240
stories are grouped with parallel or
1207
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,040
contrasting
1208
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:26,319
themes in pairs in groups of four or
1209
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:29,680
even groups of eight stories
1210
00:43:26,319 --> 00:43:32,000
historically the vernacular story form
1211
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:32,720
developed from anonymous 16th century
1212
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,760
tales
1213
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:38,960
compiled and printed under the auspices
1214
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,720
of a member of the ming imperial family
1215
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,240
they developed through feng lang long's
1216
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,280
development of the form and his
1217
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,720
collections
1218
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:48,240
and lingmung chu's expansion of the form
1219
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,280
through greater imagination and
1220
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:53,920
creativity and writing of the stories
1221
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:56,160
but the main fall produced provoked the
1222
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,200
politically engaged fiction collection
1223
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,160
ching yajong a bell in the still of the
1224
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,839
night
1225
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:06,560
probably in 1641. one of its stories is
1226
00:44:03,839 --> 00:44:09,359
on the suicide of the chunyun emperor
1227
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,800
and the fall of beijing to moms mobs of
1228
00:44:09,359 --> 00:44:12,800
highway men
1229
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,720
one is a story about a contender for the
1230
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,800
throne a man named mongerming
1231
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:20,079
a third narrates the desecration of the
1232
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:22,800
ming tombs in 1635
1233
00:44:20,079 --> 00:44:26,000
making these stories into a current
1234
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,960
called chersher joshua
1235
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,480
fiction on current events most of the
1236
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,079
stories in that collection are about
1237
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,440
loyal ministers
1238
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:37,599
as a reaction they use playful parodies
1239
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,480
and lighthearted satires of conventional
1240
00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:43,359
values
1241
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:45,760
of the 1640s are marked contrast
1242
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:48,160
and then a juicer is much more
1243
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,960
cantankerous more biting rejections of
1244
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,480
conventions
1245
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,000
of form and content may well respond to
1246
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,000
liu's fiction
1247
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,079
there are indications that the two may
1248
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,319
have known each other
1249
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:01,839
there are interesting references in some
1250
00:45:00,319 --> 00:45:04,480
of these writings
1251
00:45:01,839 --> 00:45:05,359
to the same references that you see it
1252
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,160
appearing in
1253
00:45:05,359 --> 00:45:11,520
aina juicers stories so there may be
1254
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,520
some connection between the two
1255
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,079
but to me the stories in
1256
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,720
idle talk under the bean arbor seem to
1257
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:24,400
reflect general historical factors
1258
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:27,520
in addition to probable personal trauma
1259
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,599
that is many intel maine intellectuals
1260
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,960
fed that felt that their world had
1261
00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:33,359
collapsed
1262
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,359
that the end times for all culture and
1263
00:45:33,359 --> 00:45:36,800
taste had arrived
1264
00:45:35,359 --> 00:45:38,880
some even thought that traditional
1265
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,280
values might have been the cause for the
1266
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,839
fall of the main
1267
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,680
but manchus worked hard to become more
1268
00:45:43,839 --> 00:45:48,079
traditional than the ming rulers
1269
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,640
had been in terms of administrative
1270
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:52,560
structures and standards of behavior
1271
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,880
in particularly endorsing the study of
1272
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,960
confucian classics as qualifications for
1273
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,800
administrative positions
1274
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,000
this convinced some of the han elite who
1275
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,760
swore allegiance to the new
1276
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,280
regime and took positions in the qing
1277
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,000
bureaucracy
1278
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,319
on the other hand significant numbers of
1279
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,160
ming
1280
00:46:06,319 --> 00:46:10,240
intellectuals and other members of the
1281
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,240
elite went into retirement
1282
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:14,160
to symbolize their unwillingness to
1283
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:17,440
compromise their loyalty
1284
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:19,920
to the empire that failed many of these
1285
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,480
dissidents became or pretended to become
1286
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,119
buddhist monks who renounce civil
1287
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,119
society
1288
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:31,280
despite the buddhist inclinations
1289
00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:33,920
suggested by his pen name
1290
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,480
our author aina whose name has to do
1291
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,920
with
1292
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,800
the cushion on which you sit for
1293
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:41,440
meditation our author aina did not write
1294
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,359
stories that favorite buddhist values
1295
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,480
but apparently he was not won over by
1296
00:46:43,359 --> 00:46:47,599
the manchu leader's
1297
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,319
appeals either his stories paint the end
1298
00:46:47,599 --> 00:46:51,680
of the world
1299
00:46:48,319 --> 00:46:54,000
of received values and culture indeed
1300
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,839
aina's fictional world is characterized
1301
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,520
by skepticism
1302
00:46:55,839 --> 00:47:00,400
that shows the emptiness of the
1303
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:04,240
teachings of the past
1304
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:09,920
for any relevance in post apocalyptic
1305
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:11,520
age in which i now is living and writing
1306
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,280
as a prologue for session
1307
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,920
five the little beggar who was truly a
1308
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,640
truly
1309
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,319
filial the narrator comments on what a
1310
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,000
fine day it was
1311
00:47:20,319 --> 00:47:24,720
and on the carefree nature of their
1312
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,440
gathering under the arbor he continues
1313
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:28,319
quote
1314
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:30,480
our breeze has suddenly arisen the
1315
00:47:28,319 --> 00:47:30,880
fragrance of bean flowers is wafting
1316
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,040
across
1317
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,040
our foreheads cooling our bodies
1318
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:38,240
preparing us for some idle talk
1319
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,319
of worldly affairs past and present
1320
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,920
but we shouldn't misunderstand the word
1321
00:47:40,319 --> 00:47:44,160
idol here
1322
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,359
it's only during moments of idleness
1323
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:50,240
that our better nature can assert itself
1324
00:47:47,359 --> 00:47:51,359
and we can utter the most sincere words
1325
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:55,839
that can move us
1326
00:47:51,359 --> 00:47:58,720
most deeply clearly aina the layman
1327
00:47:55,839 --> 00:47:59,680
wished to do just that to move his
1328
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:03,200
readers most
1329
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:04,800
deemed deeply with his stories
1330
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,640
and i believe that they were successful
1331
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:10,160
in doing so at least they have been
1332
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,880
for me the beggar's boy of sessions five
1333
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,760
by the way is both extremely filial and
1334
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,160
loving
1335
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:18,319
and caring for his influent mother for
1336
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,960
many years carrying around on her on his
1337
00:48:18,319 --> 00:48:22,400
back
1338
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,960
finding good food for her all without
1339
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,240
benefit
1340
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,960
of any confucian education
1341
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:30,400
so let me stop there and see if you all
1342
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:34,319
have any questions
1343
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:37,520
thank you for your attention
1344
00:48:34,319 --> 00:48:38,800
thank you professor hagel for the
1345
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,440
wonderful and
1346
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,359
thought-provoking talk so now the floor
1347
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,880
is open for questions
1348
00:48:43,359 --> 00:48:51,040
and i will read out the questions in the
1349
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,960
q a chat box and i would also encourage
1350
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:56,000
people in the audience to continue to
1351
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,000
post your questions
1352
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,839
i'm so sorry i should turn on my video
1353
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:03,599
so now
1354
00:48:59,839 --> 00:49:06,640
um please keep posting questions in the
1355
00:49:03,599 --> 00:49:09,200
uh in the q a box and so
1356
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,720
now let's go to our first question uh
1357
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:14,160
this is by brenda
1358
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:14,960
ciao from is who is a student in my
1359
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,079
class
1360
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:20,640
so brenda's question is did shutshi
1361
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:21,680
have the animals returned to their blood
1362
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,839
thirsty
1363
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,680
nature to get rid of the people in on
1364
00:49:23,839 --> 00:49:26,720
the mountain who might notice his
1365
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,920
absence
1366
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,640
so this is a specific question about uh
1367
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,920
session
1368
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:35,680
seven i think yeah that's that's a
1369
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,400
that's an interesting question
1370
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,839
because the story leaves it ambiguous
1371
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,880
but one can only assume
1372
00:49:39,839 --> 00:49:44,160
if they are uh man-eating as the story
1373
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,599
says they are
1374
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:48,880
they'll go back and they'll eat up all
1375
00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:50,800
these these and these people who have
1376
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,119
uh fled into the mountains to try to
1377
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:56,720
make a good reputation for themselves
1378
00:49:53,119 --> 00:49:58,960
so that element seems to me to be a
1379
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,160
a critique of the sort of assumed
1380
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,440
positions this
1381
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:06,319
assumed self-righteousness of
1382
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,839
many people of his generation but you
1383
00:50:06,319 --> 00:50:11,040
know i read these stories all
1384
00:50:07,839 --> 00:50:12,240
as as relevant to the author's time and
1385
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:15,040
i think they were
1386
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:15,680
i mean anybody who's lived through well
1387
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,800
let's say
1388
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:22,240
now the vietnam war for example
1389
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:24,400
as i have who have lived through the
1390
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,359
uh pandemic which we all have lived
1391
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,760
through
1392
00:50:25,359 --> 00:50:28,559
won't easily forget it it'll have its
1393
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,920
effects
1394
00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:32,800
and it'll change the way we think to a
1395
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,599
degree
1396
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,359
so you know not surprisingly i think
1397
00:50:35,599 --> 00:50:39,119
that
1398
00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:41,920
the times in which these stories were
1399
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:45,599
written did affect their uh
1400
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:48,160
their content rather dramatically
1401
00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:48,800
thank you and our second question is
1402
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,760
from uh
1403
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,200
ming hyo so this question is about the
1404
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:56,400
translation
1405
00:50:53,200 --> 00:51:00,160
of the idol talk and the wing arbor so
1406
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:02,480
mikhail noticed that the translation
1407
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,520
reads like stories originally written in
1408
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,720
english
1409
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:09,359
so and he's very interested in
1410
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:11,280
your experience about co-editing these
1411
00:51:09,359 --> 00:51:16,000
translations
1412
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:18,400
did you do any re-translation on the
1413
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,000
individual stories i think that's what
1414
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,559
the question is about
1415
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,520
sure well this was a this was a really
1416
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:25,440
interesting project
1417
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,040
and i enjoyed it tremendously as a
1418
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:30,000
matter of fact because
1419
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,480
i um had found out about these stories
1420
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,720
from
1421
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,520
reading uh patrick hannan's book that
1422
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:37,440
you read a little bit of yourselves
1423
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,119
and so i picked up the collection and as
1424
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:41,599
i read through it i realized these are
1425
00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:42,480
all really quite unlike anything i had
1426
00:51:41,599 --> 00:51:44,880
read before
1427
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,440
even all of the sannyan stories that
1428
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:50,160
fong malone had written
1429
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:52,160
and i wanted to get them into
1430
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:54,079
translation but i felt that i wouldn't
1431
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,599
be able to do it all myself i was still
1432
00:51:54,079 --> 00:51:57,280
teaching at the time
1433
00:51:55,599 --> 00:51:58,640
and so i asked various people if they
1434
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,800
were interested and i was having a
1435
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,480
translation seminar at the time
1436
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,240
and several of the students in the
1437
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,559
seminar said they would like to do that
1438
00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:10,240
a couple of other people did as well
1439
00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:13,200
and so um we divvied up the stories
1440
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:15,520
and they all uh produced translations
1441
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,960
independently but
1442
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:21,359
being the oldest and being their
1443
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,319
former instructor in many cases and
1444
00:52:21,359 --> 00:52:25,599
being the editor
1445
00:52:22,319 --> 00:52:28,000
gave me a certain privilege over
1446
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:29,520
modifying the translations but in point
1447
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:33,040
of fact
1448
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:36,319
the copy editor for the press
1449
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:39,119
was extremely good at
1450
00:52:36,319 --> 00:52:41,359
pointing out the awkwardness of some of
1451
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:42,720
our translations and helping smooth it
1452
00:52:41,359 --> 00:52:44,960
out and so forth
1453
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:46,480
so i'd like to say that the best parts
1454
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,200
are all mine but that would be
1455
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:51,920
uh unfair to everybody else who worked
1456
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:54,559
really hard to make these stories
1457
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,920
as good as they are and i think part of
1458
00:52:54,559 --> 00:52:58,720
what we were going on
1459
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:01,839
is is trying to recreate this idea of
1460
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:01,839
telling a story
1461
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:06,480
and that's that's one of the things that
1462
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:09,680
makes these stories unusual
1463
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:11,520
and uh an element that is
1464
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,040
constantly referred to in the collection
1465
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:15,359
itself at the beginning of
1466
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,160
most stories there's some dialogue that
1467
00:53:15,359 --> 00:53:19,520
goes on
1468
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,200
some some person is uh requested to tell
1469
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,400
a story somebody else says no don't tell
1470
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,079
that story i don't want to hear that i
1471
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,280
want to hear something else
1472
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:29,040
and so there's the process of of
1473
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,359
of oral communication that goes on that
1474
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,920
which we did try to recreate
1475
00:53:31,359 --> 00:53:35,839
in the translations of this of these
1476
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:39,119
stories
1477
00:53:35,839 --> 00:53:41,760
nice question though thank you thank you
1478
00:53:39,119 --> 00:53:43,680
i i think i agree with that and the
1479
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,079
person who raised the question that
1480
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,359
you know this volume translation is so
1481
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:49,760
readable and
1482
00:53:47,359 --> 00:53:50,880
it's such a valuable addition to you
1483
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,680
know
1484
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,359
our course list and now we can add these
1485
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,920
stories to
1486
00:53:55,359 --> 00:53:59,040
our syllabus and our students have a
1487
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,760
wider range of
1488
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,520
stories to read from um and the
1489
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,480
following question is from charles
1490
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:07,760
hayford
1491
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:09,359
um so this question is about the
1492
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:13,680
reactions
1493
00:54:09,359 --> 00:54:17,280
what other writers or critics
1494
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:19,200
might have to announce a collection so
1495
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,800
what
1496
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:26,559
kind of a response that i know
1497
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,760
collection might have induced in his own
1498
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:29,680
time
1499
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,319
and what was the reputation of this
1500
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:35,440
collection in later generations
1501
00:54:32,319 --> 00:54:38,079
those are very good questions
1502
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,359
i don't have a complete answer for them
1503
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:42,720
but each ch
1504
00:54:39,359 --> 00:54:47,599
each session is followed by a commentary
1505
00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:47,599
and although it's it was conventional
1506
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:52,319
for some writers some some collections
1507
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,079
at least that the author would write his
1508
00:54:52,319 --> 00:54:55,839
own commentary
1509
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:57,359
often the commentary was written by
1510
00:54:55,839 --> 00:54:59,119
somebody else and it seems to me
1511
00:54:57,359 --> 00:55:01,040
reading through these comments at the
1512
00:54:59,119 --> 00:55:03,040
end of the stories that they were
1513
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,880
written by somebody else
1514
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,160
whether that person was the same person
1515
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,319
who wrote the preface
1516
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,640
i'm not sure the preface is very
1517
00:55:08,319 --> 00:55:12,640
congratulatory says
1518
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,240
wonderful stories genius writer all
1519
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,000
these sorts of things
1520
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:17,599
that you might expect a good friend to
1521
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,480
write to try to help
1522
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:21,680
sell your your collection of stories but
1523
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:25,440
the um
1524
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:27,920
the commentator at the end of each story
1525
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,440
generally takes apart the story to the
1526
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:32,559
extent that he talks about
1527
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,640
what's important there and he takes
1528
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:35,520
these stories very seriously not as
1529
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:38,079
entertainment
1530
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:41,680
but as social commentary political
1531
00:55:38,079 --> 00:55:44,720
commentary in in some cases
1532
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,839
and so i would say that these these
1533
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:49,680
stories were read
1534
00:55:46,839 --> 00:55:53,119
uh as meaningful
1535
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:56,880
not simply entertainment by any means
1536
00:55:53,119 --> 00:56:00,319
and um one can say
1537
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:02,480
a few things not a lot about a few
1538
00:56:00,319 --> 00:56:03,920
things about how often a story
1539
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,000
collection or a novel
1540
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,480
or a play or anything else was reprinted
1541
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:11,200
later and during the qing period
1542
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,280
the punch was was repeated uh was
1543
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:16,000
reprinted several times
1544
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,280
and it was one of those collections that
1545
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,880
um
1546
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:24,079
came to be re rediscovered in the very
1547
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:25,200
end of the qing period in the late 19th
1548
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:27,359
century
1549
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,559
uh and early 20th century it was
1550
00:56:27,359 --> 00:56:33,119
reprinted
1551
00:56:28,559 --> 00:56:35,119
fairly frequently as um
1552
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:37,119
i think intellectuals saw the parallels
1553
00:56:35,119 --> 00:56:38,960
between the beginning of the qing and
1554
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:41,040
the end of the chain as the fall of the
1555
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:44,240
dynasty the ming dynasty and
1556
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,680
the obvious decline and weakness of the
1557
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:49,520
qing dynasty
1558
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:50,799
and texts reflecting that earlier period
1559
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,319
come to be
1560
00:56:50,799 --> 00:56:55,920
more widely known so people did take it
1561
00:56:54,319 --> 00:56:59,200
as serious fiction people did
1562
00:56:55,920 --> 00:57:00,240
did read it the question is always how
1563
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,280
many
1564
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:06,319
and unless we have some sort of printed
1565
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:10,319
uh response
1566
00:57:06,319 --> 00:57:12,319
it's hard to know in european literature
1567
00:57:10,319 --> 00:57:14,559
scholars often point to what's called
1568
00:57:12,319 --> 00:57:16,960
marginalia the the comments that people
1569
00:57:14,559 --> 00:57:19,440
wrote in the margins of their books
1570
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,160
but you don't find those in chinese
1571
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,640
books
1572
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,920
a chinese fiction at least and part of
1573
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,480
the reason is because
1574
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:27,200
there are very few copies of any one
1575
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:29,920
edition
1576
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,760
available now one could conclude that
1577
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,000
there never were that many copies
1578
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,799
available
1579
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,559
and i think that's probably right now a
1580
00:57:36,799 --> 00:57:40,720
printing block can print
1581
00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:41,760
a thousand copies if they touch it up a
1582
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:45,359
little bit with
1583
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,920
the with the engraving tool maybe uh two
1584
00:57:45,359 --> 00:57:49,040
or
1585
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,799
more thousand copies was fiction ever
1586
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,119
printed in so many copies there's
1587
00:57:50,799 --> 00:57:54,880
absolutely no reason to believe it was
1588
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:58,160
may have been printed in dozens of
1589
00:57:54,880 --> 00:58:00,720
copies 100 or 200 copies
1590
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:01,760
but when throughout all of the chinese
1591
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,079
speaking world
1592
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,280
you can only find in libraries around
1593
00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:07,680
the world nowadays
1594
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,680
you can only find two three or four
1595
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,119
copies of any one edition
1596
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,960
you have to wonder how many there were
1597
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:15,359
to begin with so
1598
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:17,440
when i say that it was popular it meant
1599
00:58:15,359 --> 00:58:21,680
that it was in print
1600
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:23,520
but keeping in mind that in before the
1601
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,720
present day really before the 20th
1602
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,400
century at least
1603
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:29,920
for a book to be in print meant that a
1604
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:32,000
book was in print in a particular place
1605
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,440
and not necessarily widely available
1606
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,799
across the country or even
1607
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:39,280
any other city there was a
1608
00:58:36,799 --> 00:58:40,000
a trade between fujian which is a
1609
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:43,040
printing
1610
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:44,240
printing center and jiangnan cities
1611
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,119
especially uh
1612
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,760
jinding or nanjing to a certain extent
1613
00:58:47,119 --> 00:58:50,640
between
1614
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,799
suzhou and hangzhou and so forth but
1615
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:56,400
available in beijing well that might not
1616
00:58:52,799 --> 00:59:00,000
happen in sichuan probably not
1617
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:03,440
and so um there's always a limit to how
1618
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:06,160
much you can claim a book of fiction or
1619
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:09,359
book of any kind in in pre-modern china
1620
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,359
actually circulated
1621
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:15,599
okay i think we have several questions
1622
00:59:13,119 --> 00:59:17,359
lining up in the box but in the meantime
1623
00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:18,720
i just want to mention that we still
1624
00:59:17,359 --> 00:59:21,680
have plenty of time
1625
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:22,720
so please keep submitting your questions
1626
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,760
um
1627
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:26,720
okay i think we have another related
1628
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,280
question
1629
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,480
and which has to do actually translation
1630
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,799
and also
1631
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,599
uh like what kind of audience would you
1632
00:59:32,799 --> 00:59:36,000
want to reach
1633
00:59:33,599 --> 00:59:37,440
with this translation so this question
1634
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,760
is from mimi yang
1635
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,799
asking that what would you hope for
1636
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,280
people who don't know
1637
00:59:40,799 --> 00:59:46,079
any chinese history and culture get from
1638
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:49,119
reading these translated stories
1639
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:49,920
that's a good question well on this on
1640
00:59:49,119 --> 00:59:52,960
the hope
1641
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,760
that people who wrote this collection of
1642
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,480
stories
1643
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:59,440
would be in precise of that position we
1644
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:01,760
included a lot of notes
1645
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,559
and references explaining the historical
1646
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,799
uh uh
1647
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:07,119
illusions and so forth and of course
1648
01:00:04,799 --> 01:00:10,079
writers of this period
1649
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:11,920
regularly referred to what they assumed
1650
01:00:10,079 --> 01:00:13,599
would be common knowledge on the part of
1651
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:16,880
their original readers that is say
1652
01:00:13,599 --> 01:00:18,799
males educated and education of course
1653
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:19,280
before the 20th century really only
1654
01:00:18,799 --> 01:00:20,799
meant
1655
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,319
training for the civil service
1656
01:00:20,799 --> 01:00:23,359
examinations that meant you read the
1657
01:00:22,319 --> 01:00:26,400
classics and you were
1658
01:00:23,359 --> 01:00:29,200
and you memorized them the four books
1659
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:31,520
the five classics and so forth then you
1660
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:34,880
went on to the histories
1661
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:37,680
and so the assumption was that
1662
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:39,359
you would know who jadget way was from
1663
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,760
the original stories
1664
01:00:39,359 --> 01:00:44,400
you would know who she sure was and most
1665
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:48,559
beautiful woman of ancient china and
1666
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:49,839
and so forth but assuming that our
1667
01:00:48,559 --> 01:00:51,760
readers of this
1668
01:00:49,839 --> 01:00:53,839
translated collection would not
1669
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,760
necessarily know any of that
1670
01:00:53,839 --> 01:00:57,280
we've we put a lot of notes into the
1671
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,280
back
1672
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,280
the cultural references section it's
1673
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:05,200
called and then
1674
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:07,520
each translator included a number of
1675
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,920
notes
1676
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,680
they appear in the back of the book and
1677
01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:15,440
explaining particular things that are
1678
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:20,720
not common to the rest of the stories
1679
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,720
and in my introduction i tried to
1680
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,720
sketch out some of the things that i
1681
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,960
think are most important
1682
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:28,240
you know one of the things that hannan
1683
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:31,920
does in his
1684
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:34,319
chapter on aina as
1685
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:35,920
as hannan always did put his finger
1686
01:01:34,319 --> 01:01:38,720
precisely on some of the
1687
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:41,200
most sensitive points and i should say
1688
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:43,599
the ambiguity of these stories
1689
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,400
the fact that they debunk traditional
1690
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:46,720
values
1691
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,400
and specifically the idea of harmonious
1692
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:51,200
society the idea of
1693
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,720
a moral universe the idea that learning
1694
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:55,760
somehow is a good thing
1695
01:01:52,720 --> 01:02:00,160
and teaches people how to be good
1696
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,760
um all these sorts of things we can pick
1697
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,480
out of these stories with enough
1698
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,920
guidance
1699
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:06,559
and my hope was that with the
1700
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:09,599
introduction and the notes and so forth
1701
01:02:06,559 --> 01:02:11,440
we could provide enough guidance for
1702
01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:13,119
a person to get a good sense of what
1703
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:16,240
these meant
1704
01:02:13,119 --> 01:02:19,520
but you know it's
1705
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:20,720
to be honest uh our reading in 21st
1706
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,920
century
1707
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:25,920
america can never be the same as reading
1708
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,599
in 17th century china
1709
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,760
we're reading from quite different
1710
01:02:27,599 --> 01:02:31,599
perspectives quite different views
1711
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,880
and of course there's always something
1712
01:02:31,599 --> 01:02:36,000
lost in translation
1713
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:38,400
and contrary always something added in
1714
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:42,240
translation
1715
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:45,920
uh is our translation
1716
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:46,559
successful in portraying the style of
1717
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,839
language
1718
01:02:46,559 --> 01:02:51,200
and the the tenor of language of the
1719
01:02:49,839 --> 01:02:53,039
original
1720
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,640
now one of the things i tried to do in
1721
01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:58,000
editing these stories which
1722
01:02:54,640 --> 01:03:00,480
i didn't do much of frankly was to try
1723
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:04,000
to get the tenor right
1724
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:06,720
now did i or didn't i um no reviewer has
1725
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:09,119
actually taken us to task for that
1726
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:10,640
uh what one of the things that a
1727
01:03:09,119 --> 01:03:14,000
reviewer did point out
1728
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:15,599
is that the translations don't sound the
1729
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:18,640
same
1730
01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:21,440
and that's just fine said the reviewer
1731
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,440
because the
1732
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:27,839
storytellers differ from kl to tale
1733
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,359
and so they should sound a little
1734
01:03:27,839 --> 01:03:31,440
different and they do sound a little
1735
01:03:29,359 --> 01:03:35,039
different in the original it seems to me
1736
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:38,319
and we tried to uh to recover that
1737
01:03:35,039 --> 01:03:40,240
but yeah read lots more uh if if this
1738
01:03:38,319 --> 01:03:41,920
encourages people to read more stories
1739
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,559
there's a hundred and twenty stories by
1740
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,119
fun
1741
01:03:42,559 --> 01:03:46,400
all an excellent translation by yongshu
1742
01:03:45,119 --> 01:03:50,079
and yang yunshin
1743
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:53,200
and then another 40 stories by uh
1744
01:03:50,079 --> 01:03:54,640
lingmangchu and another
1745
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,640
whatever it is i think it's about a
1746
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,839
dozen stories in
1747
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,559
liu's translated collection by patrick
1748
01:03:59,839 --> 01:04:03,039
han
1749
01:04:00,559 --> 01:04:05,680
brilliant translations so if we
1750
01:04:03,039 --> 01:04:08,720
succeeded in having
1751
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:12,319
interested you to read more that's
1752
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:15,039
a success on our part
1753
01:04:12,319 --> 01:04:16,799
thank you the next question is from uh
1754
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:19,839
so we have several questions but
1755
01:04:16,799 --> 01:04:21,920
i think we will um first
1756
01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:22,880
maybe answer some questions having to do
1757
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,160
a specific
1758
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:28,079
uh story that was covered in the talk
1759
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,920
and then we will circle back to some of
1760
01:04:28,079 --> 01:04:32,240
the general questions
1761
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,319
so one of the questions has to do with
1762
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,720
session 11 from daniel
1763
01:04:34,319 --> 01:04:38,319
um so daniel was wondering whether you
1764
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:41,359
know this horrifying stuff
1765
01:04:38,319 --> 01:04:42,960
that was mentioned in section 11 such as
1766
01:04:41,359 --> 01:04:45,280
you know you know cutting open the
1767
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,760
pregnant women's belly or collecting
1768
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,760
human hearts to eat are these
1769
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:55,839
exaggerations that they offer
1770
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:55,839
or what is historically grounded
1771
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:59,599
i think most people most scholars
1772
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:02,880
believe that they're
1773
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:05,599
historically grounded um
1774
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,319
humanity is a pretty sad lot it doesn't
1775
01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:09,039
matter when
1776
01:05:06,319 --> 01:05:10,559
or where or whom we are all perfectly
1777
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:13,359
capable of doing
1778
01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:15,359
terrible things especially if we feel we
1779
01:05:13,359 --> 01:05:16,400
have the privilege of doing terrible
1780
01:05:15,359 --> 01:05:20,000
things without
1781
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:23,280
necessarily having to suffer for it
1782
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:26,240
one of the
1783
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,599
sets of legends about ancient china
1784
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:31,839
talks about the evil
1785
01:05:27,599 --> 01:05:36,240
last rulers of the three dynasties of
1786
01:05:31,839 --> 01:05:37,599
highest antiquity talk about having a uh
1787
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,480
a pool made of
1788
01:05:37,599 --> 01:05:42,160
of of wine and making people get down on
1789
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,799
their hands and knees and drink from the
1790
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,799
pool
1791
01:05:42,799 --> 01:05:46,960
so they look like cattle drinking from
1792
01:05:44,799 --> 01:05:48,319
it meaning demeaning common people and
1793
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:51,839
servants and so forth
1794
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:54,319
one has people uh breaking
1795
01:05:51,839 --> 01:05:55,599
open the shins of old men to see if
1796
01:05:54,319 --> 01:05:58,079
they're empty
1797
01:05:55,599 --> 01:06:00,480
because there was a story that bones
1798
01:05:58,079 --> 01:06:03,440
become empty as you get older
1799
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:05,520
there's also the story of slitting open
1800
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:08,319
the bellies of pregnant women to see
1801
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:11,280
what the gender of the
1802
01:06:08,319 --> 01:06:12,160
of the infant would be and betting on it
1803
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:16,160
and so forth
1804
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:19,359
did those things really happen probably
1805
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:22,400
um one of the things that's known
1806
01:06:19,359 --> 01:06:26,880
is that the horrors of
1807
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:29,039
the banditry of that became prominent
1808
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:31,839
in the last years of the ming before the
1809
01:06:29,039 --> 01:06:35,039
manchus suppressed it
1810
01:06:31,839 --> 01:06:38,079
was particularly bloodthirsty and
1811
01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:38,880
it seems that times of anarchy bring out
1812
01:06:38,079 --> 01:06:47,039
the worst
1813
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:48,880
in people um and these stories show us
1814
01:06:47,039 --> 01:06:50,400
some of that
1815
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,880
and i think one of the things that the
1816
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,440
stories do for us as 21st century
1817
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:59,119
readers is make us confront
1818
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:59,119
how awful people can be
1819
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:05,520
to make a timely reference
1820
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:07,119
i think the people who assaulted the
1821
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,319
capital on
1822
01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:13,359
in january were perfectly capable of
1823
01:07:10,319 --> 01:07:13,760
doing any kind of violence if they had
1824
01:07:13,359 --> 01:07:16,400
had the
1825
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:18,079
opportunity through the heroism the
1826
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,400
capital guards and so forth they were
1827
01:07:18,079 --> 01:07:23,520
forced away
1828
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:26,960
but uh in this country now there
1829
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:30,559
are uh warnings of extremists who would
1830
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:33,599
apparently go to most any lengths
1831
01:07:30,559 --> 01:07:35,280
to assert their right to be whatever
1832
01:07:33,599 --> 01:07:37,520
they wanted to be
1833
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,960
would they slit open babe pregnant women
1834
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:43,520
no would they do something
1835
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:44,799
equally terrifying probably
1836
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,799
how do we know these are not just
1837
01:07:44,799 --> 01:07:48,720
hyperbole well
1838
01:07:46,799 --> 01:07:50,880
we don't necessarily they could be
1839
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,720
hyperbolic
1840
01:07:50,880 --> 01:07:54,640
and one of the things that the stories
1841
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:57,839
do and i i should emphasize
1842
01:07:54,640 --> 01:08:00,880
this i said it before that by putting
1843
01:07:57,839 --> 01:08:04,160
stories within stories within stories
1844
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:05,440
you're removing the validity of
1845
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,359
the potential validity the
1846
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:08,799
predictability of the outcomes and so
1847
01:08:07,359 --> 01:08:11,200
forth those stories
1848
01:08:08,799 --> 01:08:12,640
and you're you're you're uh sort of
1849
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:16,480
protecting
1850
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:17,839
yourself against uh claims that you're
1851
01:08:16,480 --> 01:08:21,279
making absurd
1852
01:08:17,839 --> 01:08:21,839
assertions i didn't i didn't see this
1853
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:24,239
myself
1854
01:08:21,839 --> 01:08:25,679
i just heard it you heard it from a man
1855
01:08:24,239 --> 01:08:27,440
or he didn't see it himself he just
1856
01:08:25,679 --> 01:08:29,359
heard it
1857
01:08:27,440 --> 01:08:31,199
and this this is a technique of this
1858
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:33,279
story collection which is
1859
01:08:31,199 --> 01:08:35,199
really quite troubling in itself because
1860
01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:36,000
it seems to be pointing on to things
1861
01:08:35,199 --> 01:08:38,000
that
1862
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,040
we can't talk about because it's too
1863
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:43,679
awful
1864
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:43,679
but i am talking about and it is awful
1865
01:08:43,759 --> 01:08:46,799
so i don't know and they're troubling
1866
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,000
stories that's what drew me to the
1867
01:08:46,799 --> 01:08:50,640
collection and that's why i
1868
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,839
encourage students to to to translate it
1869
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:55,279
in part because it's such an
1870
01:08:51,839 --> 01:08:57,520
ironic contrast to the uh
1871
01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:58,640
happy little stories of the you for
1872
01:08:57,520 --> 01:09:00,159
example the
1873
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:03,120
story of the telescope which is
1874
01:09:00,159 --> 01:09:07,440
delightful but silly
1875
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:11,120
and uh the male mentions his mother
1876
01:09:07,440 --> 01:09:13,679
which is probably possible it certainly
1877
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:15,920
struck a lot of readers through time as
1878
01:09:13,679 --> 01:09:15,920
um
1879
01:09:16,799 --> 01:09:21,920
as really demonstrative of what human
1880
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:24,880
love can be
1881
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:26,480
paternal love maternal love and so forth
1882
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:28,799
and does it matter
1883
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:30,560
what the biological sex of the person
1884
01:09:28,799 --> 01:09:33,679
who is loving
1885
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:35,920
is well no as a matter of fact
1886
01:09:33,679 --> 01:09:37,759
it's a story for our age as well after
1887
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:40,960
all and that's one of the reasons
1888
01:09:37,759 --> 01:09:43,040
to answer an earlier question i i i'm
1889
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,440
pleased to see that these stories get in
1890
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:47,040
can get into classrooms today
1891
01:09:45,440 --> 01:09:49,199
because i think they do have relevance
1892
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,799
for us i mean we're all humans
1893
01:09:49,199 --> 01:09:52,319
we don't really change that much we
1894
01:09:50,799 --> 01:09:54,800
haven't changed that much in tens of
1895
01:09:52,319 --> 01:09:56,480
thousands of years
1896
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:58,320
and the lessons that can be drawn from
1897
01:09:56,480 --> 01:10:00,159
stories that are 400 years old written
1898
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,640
in originally in chinese
1899
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:04,159
may very well be relevant to speakers of
1900
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:07,280
english on the other side of the globe
1901
01:10:04,159 --> 01:10:07,280
in the 21st century
1902
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:15,679
okay i think we have another um very
1903
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:17,040
interesting question which is uh from
1904
01:10:15,679 --> 01:10:19,610
chris ham
1905
01:10:17,040 --> 01:10:20,719
and this question is about um
1906
01:10:19,610 --> 01:10:23,760
[Music]
1907
01:10:20,719 --> 01:10:26,560
and ham is uh chris is wondering
1908
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:27,199
uh if professor have any thoughts have
1909
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:30,640
on the
1910
01:10:27,199 --> 01:10:33,600
apparent abundance of huaban formed
1911
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,159
after aina and the youth generation
1912
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,360
because
1913
01:10:34,159 --> 01:10:40,800
common scholarships tend to suggest that
1914
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:44,159
this genre weapon was sort of exhausted
1915
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:47,280
after aina and the and after that
1916
01:10:44,159 --> 01:10:50,239
we see the re uh surgeons of classical
1917
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:51,520
language tales such as the poisonings uh
1918
01:10:50,239 --> 01:10:54,000
collection
1919
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:56,400
but neither of these explanations seem
1920
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:59,120
to address the richness or developing
1921
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,560
complexity of the form as professor
1922
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:03,280
hegel describes it
1923
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,760
so in other words this question is about
1924
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:06,719
uh
1925
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:07,600
you know the i would say the afterlife
1926
01:11:06,719 --> 01:11:11,440
of huaban
1927
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:14,560
after um aina
1928
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:18,640
is this form is its potential and
1929
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:20,080
richness already exhausted after i know
1930
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:21,920
that's a very good question thank you
1931
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:24,239
for asking that now
1932
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,280
one of the things that's become fairly
1933
01:11:24,239 --> 01:11:28,239
obvious
1934
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:29,600
in scholarship over the last say 30
1935
01:11:28,239 --> 01:11:32,800
years
1936
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,800
is how
1937
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,360
political agendas shape scholarship
1938
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:43,280
and the um history of
1939
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:44,400
modern chinese literature actually the
1940
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:47,520
modern history of
1941
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:50,719
chinese literature was written in the
1942
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:53,199
early decades of the 20th century
1943
01:11:50,719 --> 01:11:54,400
at a time when the qing dynasty had
1944
01:11:53,199 --> 01:11:56,800
fallen
1945
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:58,159
and the young intellectuals very often
1946
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,960
wanted to get rid of everything
1947
01:11:58,159 --> 01:12:04,800
traditional and and discounted as
1948
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:04,800
as uh as old and
1949
01:12:05,679 --> 01:12:09,840
a weight to be thrown off on the other
1950
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,159
hand
1951
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:14,159
there were those who wanted to say no we
1952
01:12:12,159 --> 01:12:16,239
can't just all be western
1953
01:12:14,159 --> 01:12:17,440
we have to see something good in our own
1954
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:20,159
tradition
1955
01:12:17,440 --> 01:12:20,480
and so they began to create what we now
1956
01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:24,320
see
1957
01:12:20,480 --> 01:12:26,159
as canons of literature
1958
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:28,000
of course in poetry and so forth levi
1959
01:12:26,159 --> 01:12:31,600
dufu long way
1960
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:33,199
sure um all these people were canonical
1961
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,280
long before they're seen as the
1962
01:12:33,199 --> 01:12:37,040
among the best of china's poets liching
1963
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,600
zhao and others
1964
01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:40,719
and so recreating a canon of poets was
1965
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,880
not hard
1966
01:12:40,719 --> 01:12:44,719
but because people did not officially
1967
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:47,040
accept
1968
01:12:44,719 --> 01:12:48,800
fiction vernacular fiction as an
1969
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:50,960
artistic form
1970
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,560
there were no sort of that canons well
1971
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:55,040
of course everybody knew that the great
1972
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:57,280
novels were the great novels
1973
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,280
sang
1974
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:03,040
jinping if you can put up with it uh and
1975
01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:05,040
then of course
1976
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:07,120
among the great novel of the 18th
1977
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:10,239
century which is still
1978
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:13,760
an outstanding masterpiece by any
1979
01:13:10,239 --> 01:13:13,760
any set of criteria
1980
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:18,719
um but in the short story the huaban
1981
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:21,840
story a few
1982
01:13:18,719 --> 01:13:24,400
were picked out as canonical
1983
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:26,000
that is say fung man was it ling mong
1984
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,760
chu was not bad
1985
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:29,600
but it was only sort of literary
1986
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:31,600
historians who dug around and found that
1987
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,520
qingping shantan huaban
1988
01:13:31,600 --> 01:13:36,000
collections which were all start a part
1989
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:40,000
of a collection called leo
1990
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:41,360
or 60 stories published about 1550
1991
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:43,280
they were actually quite interesting
1992
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:46,080
they used satire and irony and
1993
01:13:43,280 --> 01:13:46,880
and some of the tricks that became known
1994
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:50,480
as
1995
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:52,320
central to later huaban
1996
01:13:50,480 --> 01:13:53,840
well one of the things that patrick
1997
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:55,600
hennon did
1998
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:57,360
in writing his his story on the
1999
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,000
vernacular his book on the vernacular
2000
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:02,239
story is
2001
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:06,560
is take a look at what really exists
2002
01:14:02,239 --> 01:14:09,679
and especially after um
2003
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:11,199
after matsudung finally died and china
2004
01:14:09,679 --> 01:14:14,880
began to
2005
01:14:11,199 --> 01:14:16,719
sort of open itself to its own history
2006
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:18,640
and scholars began to look through
2007
01:14:16,719 --> 01:14:20,640
library collections and to see
2008
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:23,520
what's there to reprint what's there and
2009
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:28,080
so lo and behold the waban didn't die
2010
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:31,679
with the collection of 40 stories
2011
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:35,120
chosen from their collections uh
2012
01:14:31,679 --> 01:14:40,320
um gina gucci one
2013
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:42,719
or fantastic visions past and present
2014
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:45,120
that that was reproduced something like
2015
01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:47,679
35 times during the qing period
2016
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:48,320
they were very popular stories and the
2017
01:14:47,679 --> 01:14:51,840
other
2018
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:51,840
story collections were were
2019
01:14:52,480 --> 01:14:56,080
reprinted to a certain degree but during
2020
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,800
the chain period
2021
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:59,280
there were other waban collections that
2022
01:14:58,800 --> 01:15:03,199
were
2023
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:07,520
actually like a joshua bay for example
2024
01:15:03,199 --> 01:15:08,960
um um
2025
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,880
well i can't recite them off the top of
2026
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,600
my head but they're on my top shelf up
2027
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:14,560
there
2028
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:16,239
uh i have at least a dozen i guess
2029
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:18,800
collections of weapons
2030
01:15:16,239 --> 01:15:19,760
that were published during the uh the
2031
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:22,000
qing period
2032
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:23,280
the form didn't die out and the
2033
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:27,040
interesting thing is that
2034
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:29,440
the um style the classical
2035
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:30,400
literary pieces too the classical
2036
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:34,320
language
2037
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:36,320
pieces of fiction were very popular and
2038
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,480
if you look at the numbers of books
2039
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:40,800
which is number of titles the number of
2040
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:43,040
printings during the qing period
2041
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:45,120
during the ming period what you find is
2042
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:49,040
the more popular books were actually
2043
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:52,640
classical short fiction and that
2044
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:54,640
pu sungling was among
2045
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:56,640
others because he was relatively popular
2046
01:15:54,640 --> 01:16:00,560
but because he was
2047
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:00,560
inventive and
2048
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,159
put forward as sort of the only person
2049
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,080
who was writing
2050
01:16:04,159 --> 01:16:08,000
good stuff in classical language that's
2051
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:11,120
really not true at all
2052
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:13,120
so if you look at the bigger picture of
2053
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,920
what really existed
2054
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:17,120
uh you find that the huawei continued up
2055
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,840
till the 21st
2056
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,960
up to the 20th century and the classical
2057
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,360
literary
2058
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:25,920
tales never really died out in
2059
01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:28,480
popularity that they changed in form
2060
01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,440
and one of the things that makes uh poo
2061
01:16:28,480 --> 01:16:33,040
songling
2062
01:16:29,440 --> 01:16:36,880
interesting is that he began to write
2063
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:40,080
more about contemporary events
2064
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:41,760
not necessarily as social criticism but
2065
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:43,120
as things he had heard and events that
2066
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:47,679
were going on
2067
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:52,000
and the classical language short stories
2068
01:16:47,679 --> 01:16:54,000
short fiction written after pusa ling
2069
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:55,600
have a graduate student who's
2070
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,320
theoretically writing a dissertation on
2071
01:16:55,600 --> 01:17:01,280
that
2072
01:16:56,320 --> 01:17:05,520
if she can they became more and more
2073
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:08,480
socially engaged and
2074
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,520
so busan ling did make a difference he
2075
01:17:08,480 --> 01:17:12,719
helped
2076
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:16,239
create a richer field for
2077
01:17:12,719 --> 01:17:16,880
fiction in that form but in point fact
2078
01:17:16,239 --> 01:17:20,159
then
2079
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:22,400
he included some of the fiction i should
2080
01:17:20,159 --> 01:17:24,000
say some of the concerns of fiction
2081
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,960
that have been written in the vernacular
2082
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,560
as well so the two really continued
2083
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:32,400
through the qing period
2084
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:34,719
and it's only uh into the
2085
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,600
20th century well into the 20th century
2086
01:17:34,719 --> 01:17:38,640
that
2087
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:39,120
the modern vernacular story uh becomes
2088
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:43,600
really
2089
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:46,960
the dominant form there's a book um
2090
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:46,960
a history written
2091
01:17:47,199 --> 01:17:53,120
uh within the last 10 or 15 years about
2092
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,679
about popular fiction in china and it in
2093
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:56,960
it
2094
01:17:53,679 --> 01:18:00,320
it gets rid of that artificial 1911
2095
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:01,199
break off and talks about fiction that
2096
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:04,400
was popular
2097
01:18:01,199 --> 01:18:08,880
in more or less the vernacular language
2098
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:10,560
from the ming through the 1930s and 40s
2099
01:18:08,880 --> 01:18:11,840
and in point of fact if you don't look
2100
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:12,800
at it from a sort of political
2101
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,360
perspective saying
2102
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,480
modernism versus traditionalism and so
2103
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,080
forth
2104
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:19,920
what you can see is a good deal of
2105
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:24,320
continuity forms didn't just
2106
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:28,239
come and go they sort of continued on
2107
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:32,640
they might wane in popularity but
2108
01:18:28,239 --> 01:18:37,120
they don't start and end
2109
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:40,880
briefly with replacing one after another
2110
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:44,640
there's not a nice one leads to the next
2111
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:44,640
kind of progression
2112
01:18:44,719 --> 01:18:48,560
each each collection sort of invents
2113
01:18:47,679 --> 01:18:50,159
itself
2114
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,679
in interesting ways so if you're
2115
01:18:50,159 --> 01:18:54,960
interested in chinese fiction
2116
01:18:51,679 --> 01:18:59,360
and and want to make this a career
2117
01:18:54,960 --> 01:19:02,640
there's lots to work on uh there's just
2118
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:05,199
just just looking at the post fung
2119
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,480
short story in the vernacular is enough
2120
01:19:05,199 --> 01:19:08,719
to keep you busy for
2121
01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:10,880
the better part of a career and if you
2122
01:19:08,719 --> 01:19:12,159
wanted to look at what was popular in
2123
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:15,520
terms of classical
2124
01:19:12,159 --> 01:19:18,640
uh writings
2125
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:21,679
um and did a little study on
2126
01:19:18,640 --> 01:19:23,280
how many reprints there were of of
2127
01:19:21,679 --> 01:19:25,360
particular collections
2128
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,480
you'd find that there was lots and lots
2129
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:30,000
of uh
2130
01:19:26,480 --> 01:19:31,600
reprints of of classical fiction
2131
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,239
from the sixth dynast from the tongue
2132
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,760
from the song
2133
01:19:34,239 --> 01:19:39,440
being reprinted all the way through to
2134
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:39,440
the end into the 20th century
2135
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:45,199
okay thank you and i think we still have
2136
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,679
time for professor higgo to briefly
2137
01:19:45,199 --> 01:19:48,480
answer
2138
01:19:45,679 --> 01:19:49,679
three questions uh after that we will
2139
01:19:48,480 --> 01:19:52,719
conclude
2140
01:19:49,679 --> 01:19:54,320
the recording but i have seen that
2141
01:19:52,719 --> 01:19:56,480
among the audience there are former
2142
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,280
students and friends of professor hagel
2143
01:19:56,480 --> 01:19:59,600
so
2144
01:19:57,280 --> 01:20:01,920
if you are interested after we end the
2145
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:03,040
recording please feel free to stay for a
2146
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:06,639
while to chat
2147
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:09,679
and reconnect hang out for a while
2148
01:20:06,639 --> 01:20:10,480
and so the next question is uh actually
2149
01:20:09,679 --> 01:20:12,560
both
2150
01:20:10,480 --> 01:20:13,679
the goa and the leaking ask this
2151
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,480
question so i think
2152
01:20:13,679 --> 01:20:17,120
we can address this briefly which is
2153
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:21,280
about
2154
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:24,560
um the the image of the headless man
2155
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:26,199
in session 11 whether there's any
2156
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:27,920
you know historical reference or
2157
01:20:26,199 --> 01:20:30,639
metaphorical uh
2158
01:20:27,920 --> 01:20:31,360
meaning and having to do with this head
2159
01:20:30,639 --> 01:20:34,239
does it
2160
01:20:31,360 --> 01:20:35,520
sort of symbolize you know the chin uh
2161
01:20:34,239 --> 01:20:37,520
you know policy of
2162
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:38,560
cutting the hair from the forehead of
2163
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:41,760
the
2164
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:44,159
you know its subjects or you know how
2165
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:46,000
what does it indicate about you know
2166
01:20:44,159 --> 01:20:47,199
trauma and censorship of the qing
2167
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,800
dynasty
2168
01:20:47,199 --> 01:20:51,600
that's a very good question and i would
2169
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,960
have to say that the
2170
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,120
you know you can't have a man without a
2171
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,840
head right not a living man without a
2172
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:57,600
head
2173
01:20:55,840 --> 01:20:58,960
so this has got to be metaphorical what
2174
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:01,679
does it refer to
2175
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:03,120
well you know the story was at the
2176
01:21:01,679 --> 01:21:05,040
beginning of the qing period you either
2177
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:06,159
cut your hair in the prescribed fashion
2178
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:09,360
if you were han
2179
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:11,440
at least or you'd lose your head
2180
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:13,760
and the story makes it perfectly clear
2181
01:21:11,440 --> 01:21:16,639
that this man this headless man is
2182
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:18,639
is an innocent victim of violence then
2183
01:21:16,639 --> 01:21:20,159
violence perpetrated for no particular
2184
01:21:18,639 --> 01:21:23,440
reason
2185
01:21:20,159 --> 01:21:24,239
he's slaughtered by uh he's part of a
2186
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:27,040
slaughter by
2187
01:21:24,239 --> 01:21:28,000
a bunch of by bandits highwaymen after
2188
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:30,000
all
2189
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:31,440
so does it refer to cutting off your
2190
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:34,239
hair versus your head yeah
2191
01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:34,880
probably that's entirely possible too
2192
01:21:34,239 --> 01:21:38,560
does it
2193
01:21:34,880 --> 01:21:41,120
uh refer perhaps to uh the loss of
2194
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:41,120
direction
2195
01:21:41,199 --> 01:21:44,800
uh of the leaders of the ming for
2196
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,719
example
2197
01:21:44,800 --> 01:21:48,800
yeah that's entirely possible because
2198
01:21:46,719 --> 01:21:52,800
the the last
2199
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:56,000
40 50 years of the ming
2200
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:59,679
empire uh there were sequence of
2201
01:21:56,000 --> 01:22:01,280
really incapable rulers
2202
01:21:59,679 --> 01:22:02,719
that the chung john emperor was the best
2203
01:22:01,280 --> 01:22:04,000
and he was really not a very good ruler
2204
01:22:02,719 --> 01:22:05,760
and of course he committed suicide
2205
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:08,880
because he didn't know what to do is his
2206
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:09,120
his courtiers were totally unprepared uh
2207
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,560
and
2208
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:15,679
unable to protect him when the bandits
2209
01:22:12,560 --> 01:22:20,320
highwaymen overtook the city of beijing
2210
01:22:15,679 --> 01:22:24,000
and so looking for a metaphorical
2211
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:26,880
meaning of that gruesome image
2212
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:27,280
is what the story is really all about
2213
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,199
which
2214
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:31,040
is it i think it's it's meant to be
2215
01:22:29,199 --> 01:22:33,360
ambiguous we have to figure it out
2216
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:35,440
we have to figure it out as readers and
2217
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:39,440
and puzzle it out for ourselves
2218
01:22:35,440 --> 01:22:41,520
the stories don't give us enough
2219
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:44,000
to really figure things out in many
2220
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,960
cases yeah of course traditional values
2221
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:48,880
are are
2222
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:51,679
debunked and
2223
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:53,440
some institutions are are questioned and
2224
01:22:51,679 --> 01:22:57,199
the validity of old tales is
2225
01:22:53,440 --> 01:22:59,600
very much open to guesswork
2226
01:22:57,199 --> 01:23:00,320
but precisely what this author wanted us
2227
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:01,760
to think
2228
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:03,440
we have to figure out for ourselves and
2229
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:04,960
as i said the commentator offers some
2230
01:23:03,440 --> 01:23:07,600
clues
2231
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,320
uh but doesn't exhaust these stories
2232
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:11,440
they're they're
2233
01:23:08,320 --> 01:23:11,840
rich they're powerfully rich which again
2234
01:23:11,440 --> 01:23:13,280
which
2235
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,120
one of the things that drew me to them
2236
01:23:13,280 --> 01:23:18,320
in the first place
2237
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:19,280
um and their complexity is one of the
2238
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:22,239
things that makes them
2239
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,239
live today i believe
2240
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:28,000
um another question is about johnny fun
2241
01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:30,400
so if i was wondering uh you know the so
2242
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:33,040
about the social setting of this uh
2243
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,760
in this collection so the jana landscape
2244
01:23:33,040 --> 01:23:36,639
and also
2245
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:38,000
the customs illusions do these things
2246
01:23:36,639 --> 01:23:40,000
undercut the
2247
01:23:38,000 --> 01:23:41,040
violence of the historical historical
2248
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:44,080
memories the
2249
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:44,080
collection addresses
2250
01:23:44,719 --> 01:23:53,040
hmm um
2251
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:53,040
well for
2252
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:56,639
the period of the manchu conquest for
2253
01:23:55,360 --> 01:24:00,560
example
2254
01:23:56,639 --> 01:24:02,560
one of the elements one of the events
2255
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,320
that stood out most clearly through in
2256
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:05,920
the minds of intellectuals
2257
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,360
throughout the qing period especially at
2258
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:09,199
the end of the qing period was the
2259
01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:10,719
massacre at yangzhou
2260
01:24:09,199 --> 01:24:15,440
where at least 70 percent of the
2261
01:24:10,719 --> 01:24:18,239
population was slaughtered because the
2262
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:19,520
uh army the main army that that was in
2263
01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:22,080
charge of the city
2264
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,120
refused to capitulate to the manchus and
2265
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:25,440
so the manchus
2266
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:29,199
took over the city killed everybody that
2267
01:24:25,440 --> 01:24:33,760
wasn't the only massacre of the sort
2268
01:24:29,199 --> 01:24:37,760
so um jiangnan was
2269
01:24:33,760 --> 01:24:39,679
not spared in the onslaughts they didn't
2270
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:41,199
suffer in the way the northern provinces
2271
01:24:39,679 --> 01:24:44,000
did perhaps but
2272
01:24:41,199 --> 01:24:44,639
the brutality with which the manchus
2273
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:47,679
took over
2274
01:24:44,639 --> 01:24:50,239
there was
2275
01:24:47,679 --> 01:24:50,239
horrendous
2276
01:24:51,679 --> 01:24:56,159
and and referring to that setting
2277
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:58,000
one of the stories the one that i
2278
01:24:56,159 --> 01:25:01,040
translated with a lot of help from a
2279
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:04,080
suzhou native and her father
2280
01:25:01,040 --> 01:25:07,120
was about the free booters
2281
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:08,159
the people who made a life made living
2282
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:10,960
for themselves
2283
01:25:08,159 --> 01:25:13,520
living off visitors who came to suzhou
2284
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:15,360
and
2285
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:16,560
who indulged themselves in the wine and
2286
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:20,080
the women
2287
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:20,719
and curio shopping and all these other
2288
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,719
sorts of
2289
01:25:20,719 --> 01:25:25,040
pleasantries that you could carry on in
2290
01:25:22,719 --> 01:25:28,320
in suzhou
2291
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:30,639
and um that story
2292
01:25:28,320 --> 01:25:32,400
obviously reveals a good deal of of
2293
01:25:30,639 --> 01:25:35,679
knowledge of the area
2294
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:39,600
and it uses suzhou terms that i
2295
01:25:35,679 --> 01:25:42,239
couldn't figure out for myself and um
2296
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:44,159
there are references that no dictionary
2297
01:25:42,239 --> 01:25:46,159
that i could find no encyclopedia could
2298
01:25:44,159 --> 01:25:48,000
could refer to and and fortunately i've
2299
01:25:46,159 --> 01:25:50,719
had a couple of students who
2300
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:52,080
are originally from suzhou and the the
2301
01:25:50,719 --> 01:25:55,440
father of one of them
2302
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:57,679
shane james father um it's a
2303
01:25:55,440 --> 01:25:58,560
sort of amateur local historian and so
2304
01:25:57,679 --> 01:26:00,639
he could really
2305
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:02,960
tell me what some of these things were
2306
01:26:00,639 --> 01:26:06,480
so there there's a lot of in-group
2307
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:07,520
references to jiangnan customs and
2308
01:26:06,480 --> 01:26:10,800
culture
2309
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:13,840
and these stories but
2310
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:16,960
they're often negative they turn out to
2311
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:18,159
look they're not not sort of nostalgic
2312
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:21,280
and pleasant but
2313
01:26:18,159 --> 01:26:24,400
look what fools these people are
2314
01:26:21,280 --> 01:26:25,280
and what fools we are to accept what
2315
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:29,360
they
2316
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:31,679
offer so there's um
2317
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:32,719
there's ambiguity in in in all these
2318
01:26:31,679 --> 01:26:34,480
sorts of things i
2319
01:26:32,719 --> 01:26:36,800
you have to believe that aina was a
2320
01:26:34,480 --> 01:26:38,639
pretty unhappy man
2321
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:40,560
and given the time he lived through i
2322
01:26:38,639 --> 01:26:41,120
think we have to see that as as part of
2323
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,679
it
2324
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:45,520
did he have ptsd no i don't know that's
2325
01:26:43,679 --> 01:26:47,760
just my speculation and
2326
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:49,280
i would never put that in print but it
2327
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:51,679
does seem to me
2328
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:53,360
that it's worth considering and i wish
2329
01:26:51,679 --> 01:26:54,719
we knew more about the biography of this
2330
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,480
man who he was
2331
01:26:54,719 --> 01:26:57,840
what his relationship might have been to
2332
01:26:56,480 --> 01:27:03,040
leave you
2333
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:05,199
and why their their responses to
2334
01:27:03,040 --> 01:27:06,480
similar settings and writing in a
2335
01:27:05,199 --> 01:27:08,400
similar form
2336
01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:09,600
should be so utterly different from each
2337
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,440
other
2338
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:14,000
even when they're writing within a few
2339
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:17,040
years of each other presumably
2340
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:19,920
and the last question is from ariel fox
2341
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:22,080
every question has to do with the gender
2342
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:23,840
of the narrators and also the audience
2343
01:27:22,080 --> 01:27:24,960
in the story it seems that all the
2344
01:27:23,840 --> 01:27:27,920
narrators are men
2345
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:29,120
and also the crowd who were occasionally
2346
01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:32,159
referred to in the
2347
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:34,719
story were also men but in the
2348
01:27:32,159 --> 01:27:37,040
illustration of the bing nubber it shows
2349
01:27:34,719 --> 01:27:39,199
at the edge of the illustration it shows
2350
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:41,199
a woman actually dragging a child and
2351
01:27:39,199 --> 01:27:44,639
gazing towards the bean arbor
2352
01:27:41,199 --> 01:27:47,520
and so everyone was wondering whether um
2353
01:27:44,639 --> 01:27:48,159
you know with is there any indication in
2354
01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:51,600
the text
2355
01:27:48,159 --> 01:27:52,639
of a mixed audience um to the stories or
2356
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:55,920
should we assume
2357
01:27:52,639 --> 01:27:57,920
entirely male gathering uh much like the
2358
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:58,480
elite political societies that the
2359
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:01,840
goring
2360
01:27:58,480 --> 01:28:03,440
seems to echo and parody
2361
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,120
well there's there's two two ways to
2362
01:28:03,440 --> 01:28:08,239
answer that question because the
2363
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:10,400
the answer is sort of twofold at the
2364
01:28:08,239 --> 01:28:14,639
beginning of of the first session
2365
01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:15,440
uh it suggests and certainly this is my
2366
01:28:14,639 --> 01:28:16,960
impression
2367
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:19,840
and i think that's where the illustrator
2368
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:20,800
got it too that men and women come to
2369
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:22,960
listen
2370
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:24,080
uh and these are local villages local
2371
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:27,199
farmers and so forth
2372
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:29,920
coming to enjoy the fresh air
2373
01:28:27,199 --> 01:28:32,800
every narrator's male every person who
2374
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:36,400
questions the narrators
2375
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:37,840
is male uh the story about jealousy and
2376
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,199
so forth is certainly written from a
2377
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,520
male perspective
2378
01:28:39,199 --> 01:28:42,400
and almost misogynistic one might even
2379
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:44,400
say
2380
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:46,960
uh at least in part although that that
2381
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:50,400
is debunked in the story
2382
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:52,880
as as just that an absurd
2383
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,920
absurd uh absurdly negative view of
2384
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:56,960
women
2385
01:28:53,920 --> 01:29:00,080
but yeah the the uh
2386
01:28:56,960 --> 01:29:02,639
author is clearly writing at a time when
2387
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:04,000
the assumption is that males are going
2388
01:29:02,639 --> 01:29:04,719
to be reading and males are going to be
2389
01:29:04,000 --> 01:29:07,120
writing and
2390
01:29:04,719 --> 01:29:09,520
males are going to be the audience and
2391
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:14,880
so um
2392
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:14,880
uh this um this fellow aina
2393
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:18,960
interestingly enough writes about women
2394
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:21,840
only
2395
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:25,199
as sort of witnesses of what goes on if
2396
01:29:21,840 --> 01:29:27,440
they appear in stories at all
2397
01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:28,800
and there is a story about shisha for
2398
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:32,480
example which totally
2399
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:35,840
rewrites the original story and she is
2400
01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:36,960
a tool she is so badly abused and
2401
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:39,760
misused by
2402
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:40,960
fondly her supposed husband or lover or
2403
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:44,400
boyfriend or whatever
2404
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:47,040
from the original tale that one could
2405
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:49,280
assume a kind of sensitivity on the part
2406
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:52,239
of aina the author
2407
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:53,360
to the plight of women in the hands of
2408
01:29:52,239 --> 01:29:55,520
unscrupulous men
2409
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:57,040
and fondly is presented as a very
2410
01:29:55,520 --> 01:29:59,760
unscrupulous man
2411
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:59,760
in this story
2412
01:30:00,159 --> 01:30:08,000
but yeah this is um this is a
2413
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:11,280
a form written for men and by men
2414
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:13,920
uh and you don't find
2415
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:14,639
women presented sympathetically in many
2416
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,400
stories
2417
01:30:14,639 --> 01:30:18,000
of course the very first story of fung's
2418
01:30:16,400 --> 01:30:20,320
first collection
2419
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:21,360
is is a good example of one of the most
2420
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:25,040
sensitive
2421
01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:28,719
representations of women but even there
2422
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:31,920
uh sunchow
2423
01:30:28,719 --> 01:30:35,280
the female central character
2424
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:40,080
is um a sort of victim
2425
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:43,120
of male predations and male expectations
2426
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:45,360
so this is this is uh not an
2427
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:46,800
enlightened group of writers and
2428
01:30:45,360 --> 01:30:48,159
enlightened group of stories
2429
01:30:46,800 --> 01:30:50,000
but of course that says something about
2430
01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:51,920
the society that produces them too and
2431
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:53,040
can easily be derived from looking at
2432
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,719
the stories
2433
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:56,960
thank you to professor fox for that
2434
01:30:54,719 --> 01:30:59,440
question
2435
01:30:56,960 --> 01:31:01,120
thank you for this uh stimulating
2436
01:30:59,440 --> 01:31:03,760
conversation i think it's time
2437
01:31:01,120 --> 01:31:05,840
to wrap up so thank you everyone for
2438
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:08,000
your participation and support
2439
01:31:05,840 --> 01:31:09,199
and please join me in thanking professor
2440
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:12,639
hegel for please
2441
01:31:09,199 --> 01:31:15,760
facilitating this uh very provoking
2442
01:31:12,639 --> 01:31:18,560
uh conversation thank you for the
2443
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:18,560
opportunity